Sports Photos

Discussion in 'Photography' started by David Cleland, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. David Cleland

    BillB Guest

    I presented a possible rationale, one which would help make
    understandable why you were given no explanation. Several times.
    Since you neither agreed nor disagreed, but chose instead to ignore
    it, I can only conclude that that's an area which you would rather
    not explore. So be it.
     
    BillB, Feb 8, 2005
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  2. David Cleland

    brian Guest

    Ideally we want the image to come out correct direct form the camera, but as
    we are all aware, it doesn't always work that way. Manipulation of an image
    can occur in either the chemical darkroom or digitally, what has to be
    remembered is that the original shot is the photograph, unfortunately,
    whether film or digital it is "usually" necessary to use some degree of
    manipulation to produce the print we want, the problem is deciding where to
    draw the line. Too much manipulation of the original image should be
    considered as creating a "new" image. I can take an image from film and
    manipulate the crap out of it in the chemical darkroom, or scan it, and
    digitally manipulate it, both will produce a significantly different image
    from the original.
    The same happens with digital images, a little cosmetic manipulation can be
    used, or a lot can create a "new" image.
    If I take a nice night shot and feel it needs something, so I add a moon
    form another photo, whether film or digital, is that ART, or Photography?
    Some would argue that you can add a moon to a night shot and still have a
    photograph, where others would say that's serious manipulation.
    WE can enter a photograph into an art exhibition, but can we enter a
    painting into a photography exhibition?
    SHOULD, a manipulated image be allowed into a photography exhibition?, In my
    opinion, that all depends on the degree of manipulation, which means that I
    have to decide what I consider essential manipulation/enhancement, and what
    I consider enough manipulation to drastically change the original image, but
    then someone else may consider different thresholds.

    I am beginning to confuse my self now, LOL, I'm tired

    Brian................
     
    brian, Feb 8, 2005
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  3. David Cleland

    Guest Guest

    The possible reason that I didn't get an explanation is because he didn't
    understand what I was saying, much like yourself.
     
    Guest, Feb 8, 2005
  4. David Cleland

    McLeod Guest

    The Fuji Frontier prints on normal settings by trying to print a
    medium density print. It is not as good at this as a $500 camera is
    despite the fact that it costs $160,000, so a technician printing in
    preview mode may actually look at your images and correct them but in
    fully auto mode he may never even look at them. A preponderance of
    light tones or dark tones in your image will affect the way it prints,
    just as an overexposed or underexposed image will. If you think the
    print could be better just tell them...it seems like a pretty minor
    thing in the big scheme of things to have a bitchy fit about.
     
    McLeod, Feb 8, 2005
  5. David Cleland

    Guest Guest


    Not when you're printing 500 different prints at a time it isn't
     
    Guest, Feb 8, 2005
  6. David Cleland

    BillB Guest

    We both know that you don't really believe that.
     
    BillB, Feb 9, 2005
  7. David Cleland

    BillB Guest

    And yet you persist in wondering why they don't welcome you with
    open arms. This is yet another reason. I wouldn't be at all
    surprised if in the time required to process your 500 prints and
    mollify you, they could have processed well over 1000 prints for
    other customers. They probably know you on sight and shudder when
    you darken their premises. :)
     
    BillB, Feb 9, 2005
  8. David Cleland

    Mike Kohary Guest

    A simple mixup in communication; now this begins to make sense. I just
    can't fathom a photo printer not accepting commercial work - it would be
    like Kinko's telling you they won't print your business card. ;)
     
    Mike Kohary, Feb 9, 2005
  9. David Cleland

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Not if you're a pro, it's not.
     
    Mike Kohary, Feb 9, 2005
  10. David Cleland

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Sorry, but I gotta side with unspam on this one. If he's bringing in 500
    prints, that's all the *more* reason they should bend over backwards and
    open up the hole with their fingers to get him to come back again and again.
    Clients like that don't just fall off trees, and they should expect that pro
    photographers are going to be demanding - it's their livelihood, after all.

    Any shop that doesn't want to cater to me and my business, I'll be happy to
    take my business to a shop that does. That's a perfectly reasonable
    attitude to take IMO.
     
    Mike Kohary, Feb 9, 2005
  11. David Cleland

    Mike Kohary Guest

    It is absolutely true. That does not mean I think that pros can get by with
    anything - of course that's not the case. But it's also not what I said, so
    please don't twist my words to suit your purposes. But the OP can practice
    and improve his technique with his current equipment, and need not invest
    thousands of dollars into stuff he doesn't even know how to use yet.

    Of course it is, and I never said otherwise.

    That's a terrific shot. I might take you back out of my killfile now. ;)
    But seriously, 40 years, eh? That's great. So why be such a dickwad to
    other posters around here? Clearly, you are to be taken much more seriously
    than our other resident dickwad, because you can actually show your work and
    demonstrate that it's quite good.

    But with that amount of experience, which is considerable indeed, you should
    be able to encourage beginners a little better than that, don't you think?
    Telling the guy he needs to invest a small fortune before he'll get anywhere
    is pretty discouraging, wouldn't you agree? In fact, if I didn't know
    better, I'd say it was a statement intended to drive him away.

    Absolutely. But it doesn't then follow that with lesser equipment, you
    should just throw your hands in the air and give up.

    Use what you have, and get better. Practice makes perfect. Even with
    inferior equipment, you can produce superb shots.

    http://www.karmaphotography.com/order.asp?current_picture=thanksgiving_sunset

    Would you guess that was taken with the lowly Canon G2? It's one of my best
    sellers, and I'm rather partial to it myself. Many of the shots on my page
    were taken with that camera, and I learned a great deal from it.

    Encourage your fellow photographers, don't discourage them. He will one day
    need pro equipment to be a pro, but he is not there yet, and in the
    meantime, he can practice with what he has. I practiced on inferior
    equipment to gain the skills I have today, and I'll bet that you did too.
    Probably all but the richest of us did, and it is only now, with the skill
    that I obtained shooting on lesser equipment, that I can do the kind of
    business that enables me to afford superior equipment. It's a real
    catch-22, but it's all a part of business, and almost a necessary path to
    success.
     
    Mike Kohary, Feb 9, 2005
  12. David Cleland

    BillB Guest

    That's right, you're wrong! (see "Kay Kyser"). You're right, they
    should bend over backwards, but you have to consider the real world.
    An owner of a lab might be more inclined to tolerate obnoxious
    behavior than a Jessop's employee. And for all anyone knows, they
    may well have bent over backwards (for a year or longer) until they
    finally had enough. A good manager might take steps to try to keep
    valued employees from walking off.

    One mistake you I think you made is in relating yourself to this
    situation, implying that Jessops didn't cater to unspam so he
    happily took his business elsewhere. It was in fact exactly the
    opposite. It wasn't a matter of Jessops not sufficiently catering
    to unspam. Jessops finally told him to take his business elsewhere,
    and he did so unhappily. It even appears that the local manager
    made up an excuse that Jessops "don't permit pro customers" when
    they actually do, as reported elsewhere in this thread, just to be
    done with him. If you want to believe unspam's spin, do so, but
    look at some of his other posts in this ng. He occasionally
    displays a tone that's both churlish and supercilious, and that's
    more than a bit offputting. Easy to tolerate in a newsgroup, but as
    I noted before, a low level Jessops employee might dread to see him
    walk through the door, knowing well that their next couple of hours
    might be the low point of their week. Or of their month.
     
    BillB, Feb 9, 2005
  13. David Cleland

    BillB Guest

    Within seconds of posting the message containing the above quotes,
    I encountered your reply to unspam:
    You do bend over backwards trying to be fair to others, but you
    usually, if not regretting it, tend to eventually see it as wasted,
    unproductive effort. I could name a few, but think it best not to
    provoke the KF gods. :) Unspam isn't nearly as bad as they are (or
    were - I don't see much of their posts anymore) so with luck this
    mini soap opera has reached its last scene.
     
    BillB, Feb 9, 2005
  14. David Cleland

    piemanlarger Guest

    Here's a story for you then. When i started photography, i joined the local
    camera club. One of the members owned a local printing shop in town, and of
    course was always trying to get us to take our work there. those local like
    myself did, those who lived a few miles away tended not to make the effort
    to go there very often! Anyway, when i started as a pro doing Weddings I was
    taking my work to his shop, but I usually had to have prints re-done. The
    favourite cause of poor printing was a magenta cast, far more noticeable on
    a white wedding dress than the average snap shot. It got to the stage when
    many of the "pro / pro am" photographers would only take stuff in on his day
    off, as his assistant was a much better printer, perhaps he was not colour
    blind! He moved shop into the centre of town as apposed to the edge and
    started to pick up lots more one hour snap shot stuff. First, he decided
    that "pro" work could only be accepted on a Monday, then about 6 months
    later I got a call from him saying he would no longer take my work as i was
    costing him to much time and money in re-prints, i.e. i actually wanted a
    decent print!
    So, because he was getting more and more 1 hour films he could print to look
    like anything, some of us pros got the boot, but only those that complained
    about his poor work!
    So i took my work to another small shop which involves a 30 mile round
    trip, but this time the owner is a photographer who set up the business
    because he could never find a descent printer. Its been a good 3 years, the
    only trouble i have know is getting the chap to get digital printing
    facilities as at the moment he has none, so i have switched to my local
    jessop.
    Jessops I have had no problems with. What ever my lcd displays is exactly
    the print i get back from their lab.
     
    piemanlarger, Feb 9, 2005
  15. David Cleland

    Guest Guest


    Wanker!
     
    Guest, Feb 9, 2005
  16. David Cleland

    Guest Guest


    Exactly, what would *you* do in that situation?
     
    Guest, Feb 9, 2005
  17. David Cleland

    Guest Guest


    I repeat, wanker. Now say something clever, like, "I think that post reveals
    the churlish traits I spoke of". You are the sort of idiot I was dealing
    with so take your homespun philosophy and stick it where the sun don't
    shine.
     
    Guest, Feb 9, 2005
  18. David Cleland

    McLeod Guest

    But what I was trying to say is that the kid over the counter has no
    idea what the photographer shot. At the end, as it always has been
    with colour printing, a human has to decide what the scene was
    supposed to look like, or how the photographer envisioned the scene.
    The machine doesn't know and the operator can only guess. If you are
    a professional photographer you are going to find yourself
    disappointed a lot in the future with your printing unless you speak
    up and get reprints with instructions when required.
     
    McLeod, Feb 9, 2005
  19. David Cleland

    BillB Guest

    You not only said it for me, you proved it by demonstrating those
    traits yet again. And for further corroborations, remember when I
    said something about your attitude towards the Jessops employees,
    and that they might, just might possibly pick it up (since they
    probably aren't stupid and unobservant) and hold it against you? At
    that point you had only said:
    You've finally you let slip your true feelings. They were not
    simply improperly trained, they were idiots. As am I. As are so
    many of the people you must deign to deal with. That's not a
    pleasant world to be trapped in, even if you've done it to yourself,
    so I can understand what's behind your anger and insults. Now I'll
    leave you to your fantasies of wankers wanking and of placing
    platitudes in places where the sun don't shine.
     
    BillB, Feb 9, 2005
  20. David Cleland

    Guest Guest


    Thank you for agreeing that you are an idiot.
     
    Guest, Feb 9, 2005
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