Stop me if you think you've heard this one before..about..Stop Bath.

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Some Dude, Dec 25, 2003.

  1. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    When I first started developing I used an acetic acid stop bath for
    quite a while. The stuff stinks the worst out of all my chems and I
    was really getting sick of it.

    When I bought a PMK Pyro kit about a year ago I noticed they
    recommended just stopping with water. Rinsing a lot, basically.
    Ever since then thats all I've been doing with all my films/various
    developers and I haven't noticed one bit of a difference in my output.

    I'm trying to figure out the point for stop bath when you can use
    water? Does it regard that very small time-frame between when you
    drain the developer and put the stop bath in and how the film is still
    developing? I can easily imagine acetic acid will stop the
    development much faster, but is the time difference even noticeable
    when done with the roll?

    I rinse the film (ok, stop it, whatever) for about 30-60 seconds at
    development temperature. Just like a final wash except that I drain
    the tank 2-3 times during that minute to max sure all the developer is
    out.

    Am I missing something? Am I a chump for even buying Stop Bath? :)

    Cheers,
    -sd
     
    Some Dude, Dec 25, 2003
    #1
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  2. Some Dude

    Jorge Omar Guest

    I went exactly the same track.

    Print stopbath:
    Prints are developed to completion, so it doesn't matter if ist's a fast
    or a slow stop.
    But I use plenty of water in the stop tray, and agitate the print in it
    for at least 30s, so developer is washed out before going to fixer.

    Film stop:
    Technically, development will not stop at once in water, even with
    agitation.
    But I 'factor' it in my development times, and always do 1 min stop with
    the tank almost full, with lots of agitation.
    My results from roll to roll are consistent, and to me that's all that
    matter - and one less smelly chemical...

    Jorge
     
    Jorge Omar, Dec 25, 2003
    #2
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  3. Some Dude

    Frank Pittel Guest

    I use a stop bath (mostly out of habit) with the single exception being
    when I use diafine. I would imagine that a plain water stop would stop
    development very quickly as it washes and dilutes the developer to non-existance.

    Depending on the mood I'm in I either change the water a few times or just
    use a single change of water like I would with a stop bath. I've never noticed
    and difference in the negative when using an acidic stop or a water stop.

    : When I first started developing I used an acetic acid stop bath for
    : quite a while. The stuff stinks the worst out of all my chems and I
    : was really getting sick of it.

    : When I bought a PMK Pyro kit about a year ago I noticed they
    : recommended just stopping with water. Rinsing a lot, basically.
    : Ever since then thats all I've been doing with all my films/various
    : developers and I haven't noticed one bit of a difference in my output.

    : I'm trying to figure out the point for stop bath when you can use
    : water? Does it regard that very small time-frame between when you
    : drain the developer and put the stop bath in and how the film is still
    : developing? I can easily imagine acetic acid will stop the
    : development much faster, but is the time difference even noticeable
    : when done with the roll?

    : I rinse the film (ok, stop it, whatever) for about 30-60 seconds at
    : development temperature. Just like a final wash except that I drain
    : the tank 2-3 times during that minute to max sure all the developer is
    : out.

    : Am I missing something? Am I a chump for even buying Stop Bath? :)

    : Cheers,
    : -sd



    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 25, 2003
    #3
  4. Stop bath is used to do two things:

    1. Stop the development. There is some question of if this necessary for
    black and white processing. There also have been "monobath" processes,
    which combined film and developer, and the FG7 instructions had a half
    way process, by adding fixer concentrate to the tank with developer.

    2. Prevent ALKALINE developer from contaminating ACID fixer. A way of
    making fixer last longer.

    A water rinse would do fine for most modern developers, especialy if you
    don't keep your fixer for long periods of time. This, IMHO, would also
    apply to RC paper that does not include developer in it.

    Geoff.
     
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Dec 25, 2003
    #4
  5. I always use the Ilford stop bath which doesn´t smell (citric acid, I
    think).For ilfochrome I think it´s necessary.
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Dec 25, 2003
    #5
  6. Some Dude

    John Guest

    It's kinda like brakes. Some work well and some don't. Acidic
    stop baths stop development immediately. Water baths don't. In fact
    many have used water-bath development.


    Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com
    Please remove the "_" when replying via email
     
    John, Dec 25, 2003
    #6
  7. Some Dude

    Dan Quinn Guest

    IIRC, carry over from a Diafine B bath is alkaline. Do you use an
    alkaline fix?
    Plain water works well as a "stop". As soon as the film or paper is
    immersed in a water stop dilution and a rapid drop in ph occure. Within
    seconds development activity is halted. An acid, neutral or alkaline
    fix can be used after a water stop.
    I use fixer very dilute, one-shot, so have no use for a "stop" of
    any sort. Dan
     
    Dan Quinn, Dec 25, 2003
    #7
  8. Some Dude

    Ken Smith Guest

    I thought the real idea behind stop bath was to save the fixer. That unless
    you did a very thorough wash before going to the fix you'd end up reducing
    your fixers capacity by a considerable amount.
     
    Ken Smith, Dec 26, 2003
    #8
  9. Some Dude

    Jorge Omar Guest

    AFAIK acid stop baths are a necessity only with hardening fixers.
    If there's developer carry over, the acid fixer will become alkali and
    hardner will not work any more.

    With non hardening or alkali fixers, this doesn't matter as long as the
    developer is well dilluted (use plenty of water and wait some 30s/1 min
    with agitation).

    Jorge

    (Ken Smith) wrote in
     
    Jorge Omar, Dec 26, 2003
    #9
  10. Some Dude

    Dan Quinn Guest

    RE: (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote
    A report I read, IIRC, by the director of the IPI at the RIT
    in New York mentioned that most, perhaps all by now, DI paper had
    been discontinued. The problem cited was DI component drift in
    the emulsion. The report was dated 1999. Perhaps the situation
    has changed since then.
    A call I made to Freestyle about a week ago confirmed that none
    of their graded RC had DI emulsions.
    FWIW, the methylene blue test will not work with DI emulsions.
    The iodine amylose test is used.
    Also, in some very recent shopping for paper I came across no
    mention of DI emulsions save for one. Kentmere lists a FB with
    a small DI component.
    I don't consider myself on top of this matter although what
    I've reported may be the case. If someone else cares to really
    dig into it, fine by me. It is important to know. I bought a
    100 sheet box of the stuff, Kodak's, about three years ago
    and did'nt find out untill latter, on closer reading. Dan
     
    Dan Quinn, Dec 26, 2003
    #10
  11. Some Dude

    brougham5 Guest

    If you're happy with your results, then your process must work for you. :)

    I, too, switched to using a water stop bath. I generally use dilute
    developer...to the point where I encounter developer exhaustion during the
    development time. I don't see much point in using anything other than water
    for that situation. :)
     
    brougham5, Dec 26, 2003
    #11
  12. Some Dude

    LEDMRVM Guest

    I always use the Ilford stop bath which doesn´t smell (citric acid, I
    Stop bath for Ilfochrome? Ilfochrome developing has four steps - develop,
    bleach, fix, wash. Development is 'stopped' before it reaches the fixer.

    Ed
     
    LEDMRVM, Dec 26, 2003
    #12
  13. Some Dude

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : > I use a stop bath (mostly out of habit) with the single exception being
    : > when I use diafine. I would imagine that a plain water stop would stop
    : > development very quickly as it washes and dilutes the developer to
    : > non-existance.

    : IIRC, carry over from a Diafine B bath is alkaline. Do you use an
    : alkaline fix?
    : Plain water works well as a "stop". As soon as the film or paper is
    : immersed in a water stop dilution and a rapid drop in ph occure. Within
    : seconds development activity is halted. An acid, neutral or alkaline
    : fix can be used after a water stop.
    : I use fixer very dilute, one-shot, so have no use for a "stop" of
    : any sort. Dan

    I'm using Kodak's rapid fix so I doubt it. :) The reason for the water stop with
    diafine is they have on their directions to do so. There's no mention of using
    a non-acid fix.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 26, 2003
    #13
  14. Some Dude

    Some Dude Guest

    Thanks everyone for the responses. Basically there seems several
    angles here. Primarily that acidic stop bath is meant to save
    hardening fixer from exhausting faster (I use ilford universal rapid
    1:9).

    Nobody has mentioned any negative development issues so I'm assuming
    thats a moot point which is good.

    I *do* use a lot of Rodinal- and from what I gleaned in this group
    over time is that Rodinal is a high alkaline developer. Therefore, I
    suppose, I am lessening the life of my fixer reusing.

    Now, that doesn't particularily bother me either, though as I put a
    drop of hypo check in my gallon jug of fixer (that i've probably
    recycled 50 rolls into) and its still good- even with about 35 of
    those rolls being water stop.

    Maybe i'll consider that ctric acid fixer someday..

    Thanks...

    Cheers,
    -sd
     
    Some Dude, Dec 26, 2003
    #14
  15. Some Dude

    Andrew Price Guest

    Ilford makes one, and as Dimitris pointed out, it works fine and
    doesn't stink.
     
    Andrew Price, Dec 26, 2003
    #15
  16. Some Dude

    Dan Quinn Guest

    RE: Frank Pittel <>

    The way I read your post, I thought you were not using a stop
    of any sort after the B bath. Dan
     
    Dan Quinn, Dec 26, 2003
    #16
  17. Some Dude

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : RE: Frank Pittel <>

    : The way I read your post, I thought you were not using a stop
    : of any sort after the B bath. Dan

    I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear. I use a thirty second (or so, I don't time the stop
    terribly accuratly) water stop with diafine and I use Kodak's indicator stop
    bath for all other developers.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 27, 2003
    #17
  18. Some Dude

    Dan Quinn Guest

    Is there some reason sodium bisulfite or bisulfate are not used? Dan
     
    Dan Quinn, Dec 27, 2003
    #18
  19. Some Dude

    Dan Quinn Guest

    RE: (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) wrote

    I wonder if enough importance is placed on removeing the developer
    itself from the paper or film prior to it's being placed in the fixer.
    As has been pointed out by Mr. L. Erlick, an acid stop will not
    wash any faster than plain water or for that matter the B bath of
    a divided developer.
    Now, what of developer contaminated pre-fix rinses? Be they acid,
    water, B baths, or whatever, they do become loaded with unspent
    developer.
    The 10 second dip Kodak suggests as adequite may stop development
    but who would think it washes out to any great extent the developer?
    I may expand on the subject of fixer poisening by carried forward
    chlorides, bromides, and iodides, at a latter time. Dan
     
    Dan Quinn, Dec 27, 2003
    #19
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