summary of Kodak downfall

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Dale, Feb 11, 2014.

  1. Dale

    Dale Guest

    Kodak failed to leverage a giant imaging media market into emerging
    hardware and software markets and new media markets

    failed to leverage hardware and software into new media
    failed to leverage existing media into new hardware and software
    failed to develop emerging open systems hardware and software

    cheap labor competition cannot be an excuse, they had NAFTA and were
    making consumer digital cameras in Mexico, this could have been invested
    in more

    wasn't a lack of capital, they were Fortune 26 at one time

    wasn't a lack of intellectual property, in fact they failed to leverage
    the intellectual property they had in time

    so why?

    Rochester's nickname is "smug town"

    we are talking about entertainment technology for the most part, and
    entertainment oriented careers, if this was not a market of expendable
    income, the downfall would never have happened

    for the record I worked in R&D as a systems engineer
    the problem was the people

    existing connection circles prevailed over performance and even
    organizational responsibility

    there were all kinds of groups vying too do the new stuff

    film had the money, film people got the careers

    remember this is entertainment technology careers for the most part and
    entertaining work as opposed to necessity work, fun prevailed too

    the last job I had was hybrid systems integration on the film side

    we couldn't have the word integration in the name of our group, since
    there was an equipment group was responsible for integration,, but we
    got the budgets and careers, while the equipment people had "jobs" doing
    not much

    if it weren't an entertainment business that didn't really matter too
    much, in much cases, the money and performance would have prevailed

    they had NAFTA and a consumer camera plant in Mexico, they were right on
    time I tell you, it was not an accounting problem, or a strategic
    problem, it was a corporate culture problem

    there is your business case study

    want some verification?

    they tried George Fisher from Motorola as CEO with a BIG pay to shake
    things up, he left

    they tried Dan Carp from equipment side to shake up film probably, I
    don't know where he went

    might want to hear what these two have to say about their experience

    this was a publicly held company, public means socialism whether you
    think so or not, and the public suffered, there needs to be better law
    for socialized business

    private companies can set pecking orders however you want

    socialized companies have a trust, and pecking orders other than by
    performance should be called anti-trust, in fact I can't think of any
    other anti-trust that is worse

    corporate culture in USA has to change because a service industry
    economy lasts as long as EXISTING money, to have NEW money you need a
    manufacturing economy, you need fair trade and not free trade, just the
    right amount of Nationalism, another trust issue for socialized companies

    fair trade in USA/UN/WTO has to consider worker's rights and
    environmental investments, etc. I am not a CEO but I bet if you had a
    circle of accountants instead a circle of cronies things would work,
    just a little fascism is all you need

    let luxuries to competition, no socialism, and you will eventually have
    the demand for production, and eventually the production for a
    manufacturing economy, this will be held in place by the invisible hand
    of fascism if you legislate fair trade and not free trade

    socialize needs of the people and the commodity markets of those needs
    will eventually invest in returns, this will be held in place by the
    invisible hand of fascism if you legislate free trade here

    you don't need to enforce any thing free, in fact people will do
    whatever they want unless you give them something better to do, there
    should be anarchists rights to break the law with the understanding that
    not only do you face possible governmental societal repercussions, you
    enter the wild and may have repercussions there that are outside the
    realm of government

    so how do you enforce fair, one legislation kept in place and evolving
    as nations bond

    and if the laws are so complex that only the legal system can study
    their books of code and case law to use them, then only the legal system
    can be held accountable, ignorance is an excuse, if government doesn't
    teach law, they enter the wild themselves for people they cross
    Dale, Feb 11, 2014
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  2. Dale

    Dale Guest

    just like Bob Marley said "We got to fulfill the book"

    Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third
    beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that
    sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

    Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say,
    A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a
    penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and
    poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their

    Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the
    mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    call it social Darwinism, call it social evolution, or if there IS a
    world order at any time call it social engineering

    you can't stop it, we live in the wild, eventually meritocracy wins and
    you have to base society on such, the beast of HOPE is only limited by a
    return of FEAR

    today I talked about solipsism and Freud, I said to him I thought in the
    kernel of our mind we can only know the ego, everything else is either
    part of the ego or not, but we cannot know

    I said the ego creates the id out of HOPE to enjoy the experience
    regardless, and then if reflection gets the better of you, then the ego
    creates a super-ego out of FEAR of the uncertainty which then kills the id

    there is a cycle of hope and fear I think, sometimes shorter, sometimes
    longer, but we do build a wall and end the id ourself, unless everything
    is not an extension of the ego then until there is peace the external
    ends the id by building a wall,_ego_and_super-ego

    there is Advaita Vedanta (non-dualism) which coincides with solipsism
    and Dvaita Vedanta (dualism) which doesn't
    Dale, Feb 11, 2014
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  3. Dale

    dpb Guest

    On 2/10/2014 6:17 PM, Dale wrote:

    Which has what, specifically to do with Matlab so why are you polluting

    dpb, Feb 11, 2014
  4. Dale

    Dale Guest

    "one day the bottom will fall out" Bob Marley

    we had production on this earth BEFORE

    a pyramid here, a pyramid there

    a Stonehenge a Stonehenge there

    an Easter Island statue here, some other kind of statue there

    HOW this PRODUCTION took place may be question, but WHETHER it took
    place CANNOT

    the USA is in 17 trillion debt, a lot due to sacrificing their
    manufacturing economy for a service industry economy

    as long as the USA is on the top of the pile they can print money and an
    order can be established

    but it needs to be a wise order

    a service industry economy lasts only as long as OLD money lasts

    you need production from manufacturing for NEW money

    from the looks of the pyramids the bottom has dropped out before

    and PRODUCTION will drop out again unless work-ethic knowing that
    luxuries come from labor and PRODUCTION and handouts come from labor and
    production TOO

    there may have even been a time of production before the pyramids that
    was less impressive, the pyramids required WORK

    we live in the wild, the USA may not always be on the top of the pile if
    there are patterns of debt not paid

    what kind of pattern of failure needs to occur before wisdom occurs?
    Dale, Feb 11, 2014
  5. Dale

    Dale Guest

    Kodak used to use Matlab for image processing, and Matlab used to be a
    member of the ICC,

    I used to use Matlab, I wrote a script for calibrating color negatives
    on a film recorder until the film recorder was gone, but mostly edited
    other people's scripts, like I said I was a development systems engineer
    who only dabbled in research science

    I also used SAS

    does matlab have a good statistics library?
    Dale, Feb 11, 2014
  6. Dale

    philo  Guest

    Kodak had three major failures:

    The Disk camera


    and failure to pursue digital cameras
    philo , Feb 11, 2014
  7. Dale

    Guest Guest

    the disc camera was very successful.

    however, kodak's strategy to introduce a new film format every so often
    to get people to buy new cameras was very stupid, which is why
    was a failure, as it offered nothing over what already existed.
    that's what did them in.
    Guest, Feb 11, 2014
  8. (GRIN) I was managing a chain of camera stores when Disk came out. I'd
    never been so puzzled by a product introduction; I couldn't see a
    single advantage over existing formats until I looked at it from the
    manufacturers side. The tiny 8X11mm frame used less silver, which was
    very expensive at the time. And the film disk was easier to process

    From the consumer point of view, well, they just didn't take very good
    pictures, being essentially the Minox subminiature format with consumer
    emulsions. Even 3X5" prints had visible grain, and enlargements were
    virtually impossible.

    And, does anyone remember that the cameras had built-in,
    non-rechargeable, non-replaceable batteries? Battery is expended, you
    buy a new camera.

    I disagree they were successful (only available 1982-1989), but also
    disagree they contributed much to Kodak's downfall. There were far
    worse failures to follow...
    Scott Schuckert, Feb 11, 2014
  9. Dale

    philo  Guest


    sful (only available 1982-1989), but also

    If you have ever seen a video of a lion hunting an antelope, it's pretty
    rare for them to bring them down with a single charge. The antelope's
    demise starts with just a small wound, which slows them down.

    That camera alone did not bring Kodak down but it was the start.
    The disk of course was easy for the consumer but the image quality was
    horrible and most people who got the camera did not use it long. OTOH:
    Those 35mm disposable cameras were way superior and certainly easy from
    a customer perspective. I always kept one under my driver's seat just in
    case I forgot my "real" camera.

    As to Advantix, I investigated it when it first came out and as soon as
    I realized the film was smaller than 35mm any possible interest ended at
    once. Though I did see a few people using those disk cameras, I don't
    recall ever seeing anyone use Advantix.

    Digital. I still have my very first digital camera, a 1MP Kodak. The
    damn thing is indestructible, I've dropped it on the sidewalk several
    times and it just bounced. Kodak got off to a good start but did not
    follow through.
    philo , Feb 11, 2014
  10. Dale

    J. Clarke Guest

    "Advantix" was just Kodak's brand for APS, which was a fine idea that
    lives on in the digital world.
    J. Clarke, Feb 11, 2014
  11. Dale

    Guest Guest

    aps in digital was due to the cost of sensors early on.

    advantix was nothing more than another unnecessary film format designed
    to get people to buy new cameras, something kodak did with regularity
    (126, 110, disc, etc.), and it failed, especially since it didn't offer
    anything significant over what already existed and once digital hit,
    game over.
    Guest, Feb 11, 2014
  12. Dale

    philo  Guest

    It was only 24mm, quite inferior to 35mm I'd say. I don't see that
    smaller film is a "fine idea".

    Please explain what the connection is to that type of film and digital.
    philo , Feb 11, 2014
  13. Dale

    Loren Shure Guest

    We think so. Check it out:
    Loren Shure, Feb 11, 2014
  14. Dale

    Steve Eddins Guest

    Steve Eddins, Feb 11, 2014
  15. Dale

    Dale Guest

    what if you applied the laws of supply and demand to labor?

    the work less people want gets paid more

    the work people want more gets paid less

    no harm done to meritocracy, more meritocracy since the demand of labor
    is satisfied better resulting in a more plausible production model, and
    more labor and wages giving demand for products and service

    for instance, a coal miner gets paid more than a schmoozer

    not applying laws of supply and demand to labor violates capitalism

    we do not have capitalism, we have only prestige, its like saying your
    title is more important than your pay, its like saying titles are more
    important than capitalism
    Dale, Feb 12, 2014
  16. Dale

    J. Clarke Guest

    The majority of DSLRs on the market use the APS film format.
    J. Clarke, Feb 12, 2014
  17. Dale

    Dale Guest

    we had production on earth before

    look at the pyramids all over the place, and other structures, etc.

    where did that production go?

    you can question how the production occurred, but can you really
    question whether it occurred

    did the bottom fall out before?

    if you fail to learn from history you may repeat the failures of history
    Dale, Feb 12, 2014
  18. Dale

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Which format? See

    "The film is 24 mm wide, and has three image formats:

    * H for "High Definition" (30.2 × 16.7 mm; aspect ratio 16:9;
    4×7" print)
    * C for "Classic" (25.1 × 16.7 mm; aspect ratio 3:2; 4×6" print)
    * P for "Panoramic" (30.2 × 9.5 mm; aspect ratio 3:1; 4×11"
    The "C" and "P" formats are formed by cropping. "

    What is there there that can definitively be shown to be the ancestor
    of the format used by DSLRs?
    Eric Stevens, Feb 12, 2014
  19. Dale

    Dale Guest

    do they have a toolbox and does it contain a CMM?
    Dale, Feb 12, 2014
  20. Dale

    Mark F Guest

    I think the problem was not being big in digital cameras, which
    I think was due to:
    .. using a different definition of pixel for "consumer" and "pro"
    digital camera lines
    .. high price for all cameras.

    As others noted, they made a good start in the digital area
    with format definition and scanning combined with film processing,
    but lost it by dividing their camera line and pretending that the
    "consumer" cameras had high resolution than they really did.
    (Or, after a time, using a real measurement for "pro" cameras while
    most else others used the same inflated method that Kodak used
    for "consumer" cameras for both "pro" and "consumer".)

    Kodak also did deals with several "camera" companies to make
    digital cameras. I don't know why Kodak wasn't able to capitalize
    on these deals.

    (Obviously for film it didn't matter that their cameras were
    uninteresting and high priced. [razor versus razor-blade issue.])

    They also got rid of the non-photographic chemical business,
    which probably meant winding down the chemical business cost
    more that it would have had the non-photographic chemical business
    been around.
    Mark F, Feb 12, 2014
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