The perfect vacation camera?

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Sandman, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Provided they use an inexpensive water resistant camera, and keep the
    good glass in a plastic bag.
    PeterN, Mar 12, 2014
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  2. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    On 3/11/2014 8:52 PM, Savageduck wrote:

    And the Native Americans are being slowly compensated, or owuld be if
    the casino profits were really going to them.
    PeterN, Mar 12, 2014
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  3. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    You are displaying your ignorance of the native Americans. You are also
    displaying European arrogance. Do some reading, and learn before you spout.

    And since you know how to Google, you can figure out for yourself the
    extent to which there the Native Americans had a civilized society. No,
    it was not the European model, but certainly and clearly one existed.
    Wars between the tribes never approached the greed and depravity of the
    European wars.
    PeterN, Mar 12, 2014
  4. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    On 3/12/2014 3:24 AM, Savageduck wrote:

    The interesting thing is that we are still striving to learn what the
    truth is.
    PeterN, Mar 12, 2014
  5. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Maybe you need to look up what the word "civilization" means, Peter?
    Basically, it hinges on at least three things - a formal gathering place
    for cultural/social activities, a writing system and at least one actual
    city. Things like a class system, division of labor and agriculture are
    also important parts of civilization.

    Native America tribal systems describe what we consider to be "cultures",
    not "civilizations". And there is nothing wrong with that, no judgement or
    supposed "arrogance" here. It was what it was. Point is, without cities and
    a formal writing system, traces from lost cultures are harder to find and
    easily swept away by the passage of time.

    This is why we have so *much* saved from the Egyptian civilization, and so
    little from the native american cultures.

    Mayan and Aztec are the only North American civilizations that would fit
    the bill, but they weren't in the (now) United States, which is why I
    excluded them.
    Sandman, Mar 12, 2014
  6. Sandman

    Savageduck Guest

    I was quite sure I included these references in some of my earlier posts:
    < >
    < >
    < >

    ....and then regarding *civilization* in North America, we can thank the
    Spanish for destroying much of the evidence of those civilizations they
    encountered. That destruction is just an example of the paranoid
    arrogance of Catholic Christianity. We were fortunate that the Aztec,
    Maya, and Inca were monumental builders, making their histories tougher
    to erase.
    From < >
    "Many pre-Columbian civilizations established hallmarks which included
    permanent settlements, cities, agriculture, civic and monumental
    architecture, major earthworks, and complex societal hierarchies. Some
    of these civilizations had long faded by the time of the first
    permanent European and African arrivals (c. late 15th–early 16th
    centuries), and are known only through archeological investigations.
    Others were contemporary with the colonial period, and were described
    in historical accounts of the time. A few, such as the Maya, had their
    own written records. Because many Christian Europeans of the time
    viewed such texts as heretical, men like Diego de Landa destroyed many
    texts in pyres, even while seeking to preserve native histories. Only a
    few hidden documents have survived in their original languages, while
    others were transcribed or dictated into Spanish, giving modern
    historians glimpses of ancient culture and knowledge."
    Savageduck, Mar 12, 2014
  7. Sandman

    Tony Cooper Guest

    While I would not suggest Tampa as a destination for the foreign
    tourist, I don't question people's reasons for picking vacation sights
    and sites. Busch Gardens is in Tampa, and that may be the reason for
    the choice.

    Sometimes the vacation choices of others are determined by family
    members we're not aware of. The kids may have out-voted the adults.

    Or, maybe they're touring all the Ikea stores they can to do a market
    survey on the consumption of meatballs vs cinnamon buns.
    Tony Cooper, Mar 12, 2014
  8. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Indeed you did. The loose term "mound builders" is in reference to a number
    of cultures that had the common trait of... building mounds. I'd be hard
    pressed to call this a "civilization".
    The URL notwithstanding, the page redirects to "List of pre-Columbian
    cultures", of which there were many. You will also note that of the
    cultures mentioned, only those from Mexico have a written history - one of
    the parameters of "civilization". The word "civilization" can be used
    loosely, of course, but even if you were to call the "mound builders" a
    civilization, it's still a far cry from the civilizations that predates
    them by thousands of years in other parts of the world. And my point was
    that USA has no history before civilization just because the cultures that
    inhabitated the continent before weren't advanced enough to create lasting
    These I hadn't heard of before you linked to them earlier, and reading up
    on them, this may be straggling the line for an actual civilization, but
    still no written record and no known class system. Also, I think "city" may
    be stretching it a bit :)
    Maybe, but with all their effort, they didn't manage to destroy the traces
    of the Olmec, Mayan or Aztec civilizations. So if it's "easy" to destroy,
    then perhaps there wasn't that much to begin with? :)
    Indeed - a trait of a civilization.
    You will note that the colorization of the map on that map have red as
    "civilization", and you'll only find that in central and south america on
    that map.
    Again - this is in reference to civilizations that were outside of what is
    now the United States. North America, yes - USA, no.

    I'm guessing here, but I'm assuming there's a big chance that knowledge
    about these ancient civilizations aren't taught in school in USA the way
    the roman empire is taught in Italy (or the Viking Age in Sweden). Because
    - and again I'm guessing - they "belong" to Mexico or South America.
    Sandman, Mar 12, 2014
  9. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Well, visiting pages like these:

    Puts Tampa at place four, and since Key West and Miami is out of our
    comfortable reach, it's the logical choice.

    Lot of lists have Everglades which is even farther south, or St. Augustine
    because it is "old" (which most european tourists would probably not enjoy
    as much as American tourists).

    We're thinking about Cocoa Beach since it's nearby, and perhaps visit Cape
    Caneveral as well.

    Tampa/St. Petersburg reportedly have some nice beaches as well, and I
    wouldn't mind visiting the Dali museum myself. The kids may not agree with
    this however.
    All Swedes do.
    Sandman, Mar 12, 2014
  10. Sandman

    Tony Cooper Guest

    I would not try, in any way, to influence your choice of places to
    visit. What you will see in Tampa will be different from what you'll
    see in Stockholm, and that alone may make the difference enjoyable.

    Checking that list, though, makes me think someone tried very hard to
    come up with "features", and that many of the "features" are quite

    1. Tampa Theater - could be interesting to visit because it is an
    example of a type of architecture and design that has gone by the

    2. Big Cat Rescue - While I've not been there, it is the type of
    things that I would visit, and certainly of interest to kids.

    3. Stratz Center for Performing Arts - A rather ordinary building
    that is of interest mostly for the performances there, not the
    building itself.

    4. Sunshine Skyway Bridge - Well, it's a long bridge. Other than
    that, it's just a bridge.

    5. Lettuce Lake Park - I don't know this place.

    6. Tampa Bay Times Forum - Apply the same comments to this that I
    applied to the Stratz Center. I think hockey is in season, but Swedes
    coming to the US to watch hockey?

    7. Tampa Bay Electric Manatee Viewing Center - Definitely worthwhile
    if you've never seen these creatures.

    8. Wat Mongkolrata Temple - Interesting and elaborate, but a temple
    like this is not particularly different from the many others.

    9. Bayshore Boulevard - It's a street. Most tourists come from places
    that have streets. Of somewhat more interest are the residences along
    Bayshore for those interested in architecture.

    10. Steinbrenner Field - Not the most interesting ballpark, but unless
    you want to see a baseball game it's not a place to go.

    11. Lowry Park Zoo - I love zoos. Lowry is not the best in Florida,
    or even in the top 10, but I like any zoo and all kids love zoos.

    Skipping down to

    Henry B. Plant Museum - A small but interesting museum, but of more
    interest is the architecture of the buildings at the University of
    Tampa. The Plant Museum is on the grounds. At first glance, you'd
    think the buildings were transported here from Russia or Turkey.
    Have you considered Daytona Beach? Cocoa is the nicer beach, but
    Daytona has the Daytona International Speedway and a racing museum.
    You can take a tour of the track. I seem to remember you have an
    interest in automobiles. Daytona is a 45 minute drive from me, but
    longer if you start from the Disney area.

    Unlike the west coast beaches on the Gulf, you can drive on the
    beaches around Daytona.
    Well-worth it.

    There are no real beaches in Tampa. Tampa is on Tampa Bay, and all
    the "beaches" are strips of sand that aren't really good beaches. St
    Petersburg has a number of nice beaches, but it's confusing for the
    tourist because the beaches are not all in St Pete. There are many
    separate incorporated cities along the beachfront.

    Check out Ft DeSoto beach (St Pete) or drive up to Clearwater along
    the Gulf. Finish the day by continuing north to Tarpon Springs. No
    beaches, but an interesting waterfront and good food.

    Siesta Key and Anna Maria beaches are highly rated. All Googleable.
    Tony Cooper, Mar 12, 2014
  11. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    PeterN, Mar 12, 2014
  12. Sandman

    John Turco Guest

    Nor have I.
    Nice "eye candy."
    You have exquisite taste.

    John Turco, Mar 12, 2014
  13. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Then according to your definition, the Celts were not civilized. (No
    written language.)

    In what way do the Cherokee Nation fail?
    In what way do the Navajo fail your test?

    Shall I go on, or did the Duck's references help?
    PeterN, Mar 12, 2014
  14. Sandman

    Savageduck Guest

    On 2014-03-12 10:11:38 +0000, PeterN <> said:

    So which vacation attractions do you enjoy while stoned these days?

    The Winchester Mystery House, perhaps?
    < >
    Savageduck, Mar 12, 2014
  15. I bring along my SLRs when I travel by car because I often run into
    cool scenes that could be enhanced by tilt / shift, and out here in the
    great American west one never knows when an interesting animal will
    show up, giving me the excuse I need to haul out the big white
    telephoto. But, though I never saw myself saying this 10 years ago,
    the S90 is so good that I am content to use it 90% of the time now, and
    I can never make the excuse that a camera was too bulky to take along.

    My wife still shoots film with her Fuji Natura Black, but she doesn't
    like to let me borrow it! Great lens on that thing.
    Oregonian Haruspex, Mar 12, 2014
  16. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    It isn't my definition, Peter. And no, the Celts aren't considered to be a
    civilization for a number of reasons.

    Not, though, that there is a difference between the word "civilization" -
    which I have used, and the word "civilized" - which you used here. being
    civilized concerns the way people interact socially, and says nothing about
    the political structures in place in that group.
    Seriously? The Cherokee Nation was a tribal government that existed between
    the 18:th and 20:th century. Not really "ancient" and really not
    pre-Columbian. They were part of the civilization that made out America at
    the time - i.e. the very civilization you are a member of right now. And
    indeed - the one I am a member of. Ever heard of "Western civilization"?
    That's out civilization. It includes north and south america along with
    western europe.
    It's not my test. You're really showing your ignorance here, Peter. The
    Navajo, along with most (if not all) indian tribes belong to the group
    "hunter gatherers", i.e. not a civilization. Again, a civilization hinges
    on a number of things - most importantly a written language, a class system
    and the presence of cities. It also has political and aconomical parameters
    to take into account that go beyond chiefs and bartering. Most
    civilizations have currencies. Infrastructure is also a tell-tale sign of a
    Oh, do please go on.
    Sandman, Mar 12, 2014
  17. Sandman

    Paul Ciszek Guest

    Paul Ciszek, Mar 12, 2014
  18. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Interesting. That camera still sells for about $700-$800 used these days.
    I've always wondered why - the camera has pretty bad vignetting and
    distortion in spite of the impressive lens specifications. You can get a
    Nikon F4 for about $120 and a nice Nikkor 24/2.0 for $250 and take really
    awesome pictures with it. It's really weird that this little P&S still
    sells for so much money.
    Sandman, Mar 12, 2014
  19. Sandman

    Mort Guest

    So did I. I recently lost her after 55 happily married years.

    Mort, Mar 12, 2014
  20. Sandman

    Mort Guest

    No, no, no. I wanted to tell one Swedish female that she is beautiful,
    not that all her countrywomen are. My grammatically incorrect sentence
    worked very well when I was single and living in Rome, where many
    Swedish girls came during the spring and summer. That was a long time ago.

    Thanks for the grammar lesson.


    Mort Linder
    Mort, Mar 12, 2014
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