The perfect vacation camera?

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Sandman, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Also incorrect.
    Yes, you should.
    Again, these aren't "my" requirements. Agriculture isn't a "requirement",
    but a good sign of a civilization.
    Again, incorrect. You really can't get anything right here Floyd. I have no
    idea why you joined to show off your ignorance.
    Haha. Yes, "evidence". :-D
    And Floyd thinks that the length of humans is a parameter to civilization.
    The incorrect claim from you is that the stated idea has been expressed by
    anyone or claimed by me.
    Great point, if it contradicted anytihing I've ever said.
    I have clearly explained why they didn't meet the criteria several times
    now. You have not listed anything to counter that. All you have is hot air.
    "They had a significant civilization made up of tribal systems"
    - Floyd

    No it isn't. We'll add "government" to the list of words that confuse you.
    Very true - no real civilization though. And no real government neither in
    contemporary or modern usage.
    You mean yours? We both belong to the same civilization, Floyd.
    You think Sweden is a civilization on its own? This may be the source of
    your confusion. You and I both belong to the same civilization, commonly
    called the "Western Civilization".
    You think the Swedish king is part of the government? Really? This is how
    ignorant you are? Sweden is a democratic monarchy, with a democratic
    government where the king has no state power beyond cutting ribbons and
    naming ships.
    Apparently not.
    Sandman, Mar 13, 2014
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  2. Sandman

    Bowser Guest

    Yeah, but then that little village will only be 400 years short of
    their 2,000 year celebration. I'm not sure how time really works, but
    I'm betting we don't catch up. Unless we do the 'Merican think and
    anhilate them. Yeah. That's the ticket.
    Bowser, Mar 13, 2014
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  3. Sandman

    Bowser Guest

    Damn. You knew him personally? Or are you saying that because he did
    the queen to get money to sail?

    Bowser, Mar 13, 2014
  4. Sandman

    Bowser Guest


    Please behave in a civilized manner. Otherwise all you've done is
    prove that civilizations don't exist on either side of the pond.

    Bowser, Mar 13, 2014
  5. If it was you would demonstrate it rather than declaring victory
    by proclamation.
    If it isn't obvious to you, the fact is that I do on a nearly
    daily basis. I quoted a credible source too, which you have not
    and cannot.
    The requirements stated are yours. You said exactly that, in
    several articles. For example:

    "Things like a class system, division of labor and agriculture
    are also important parts of civilization."
    -- Message-ID: <>

    "[...] indian tribes belong to the group "hunter gatherers",
    i.e. not a civilization."
    -- Message-ID: <>

    "[...] nor did they have a class system or even agriculture in
    any extent. They were a tribal system of hunter gatherers.
    -- Message-ID: <>

    Plus others, so stop denying it. You've clearly made a distinction
    between "hunter gatherers" and "civilization".
    All you can do is stammer? I've cited some of the best regarded
    minds today... and you call that ignorance!
    None of which you can refute! It does become fairly obvious
    that you were not prepared for anyone citing that level of facts
    and with that level of knowledge. :)
    It is a direct result of nutrition and the well being of people
    within a civilization. That you see it as only a joke is
    evidence that your beliefs are purely based on prejudice rather
    than science or facts.
    You have repeatedly stated that lacking this character or
    lacking that character is of itself an indication that something
    is not a civilization.

    Not just once or twice, but *repeatedly*.

    Some of it is just obnoxious by itself too. The claim that
    there must be monuments. The claim there must be surviving
    stone structures. The claims there must be a written language.

    No modern anthropologist would say such things, though it was
    very common for European "armchair" anthropology to expound such
    Quite a bit of what you have said is contradicted in just that
    one statement.
    But your criteria are valid only in your imagination.

    My "hot air" has consisted of several cites to highly regarded
    works of others. You haven't cited, and cannot cite, any
    credible source that agrees with you.
    Take Peter up on a short course. First, you clipped half of the
    sentence in an attempt to make it say something different than
    what I did say.

    Civilization in the US is made up of municipal systems at the
    lowest level and state governments at a higher level. Read that
    very carefully and see if you can determine the difference
    between that and the statement above about tribal and national
    governments that you are objecting to.

    There is virtually no difference...
    Look it up in a dictionary. Another word might help you:

    Most likely that will totally confuse you though, because you
    probably fall into the group who cannot comprehend anything
    except absolute sovereignty.

    The fact is that tribes are governments. So are municipalities,
    states, nations, and confederations of groups of those
    Right, they had confederations made up of several nations, but
    no civilization and no government! Or so says Sandman!

    If it doesn't equate to the way Europeans did it, it isn't; according
    to Sandman.
    Really? Have you ever read anything about where I live?
    Trust that I did not say Sweden was a civilization, and clearly
    said it might not even be part of one! I'm not convinced that
    Sweden is civilized either.
    Who funds the Royal family?
    You've proven the point rather well.

    If you can bring up something of actual significance, I'll
    continue the discussion. If all you have is more proclamations,
    you can talk to yourself because nobody reading this has missed
    the significance of your entire discussion being racist,
    Euro-centric, and known false.
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 13, 2014
  6. None of the sites in Florida are particularly significant in
    terms of age. That is not because no civilizations existed in
    Florida, but rather because the climate there does not preserve

    At least one site in Alaska (Point Hope) has been *continuously*
    occupied for far longer than any 2000 years. While a 1000 year
    old village is not particularly "old", I live within 1/2 a mile
    of 900-1200 year old structures. Others within a relatively
    short distance are as much as 3500 years old. Within 2-300
    miles are the remains of 11,000 year old sites.

    In Europe there are remains simply because the best building
    material they had was stone, which could survive for hundreds or
    thousands of years. That was not the circumstance for most of
    what is now the Lower-48 part of the US. But in Alaska the cold
    climate does perserve other than stone, and the same is true in
    Canada and Greenland.

    The point is that all these comparisons to what did or did not
    exist in Europe are an invalid way of measuring how humanity has
    evolved. Much of what is being called a history of the rise of
    civilization is more like a record of not the ups but mostly the
    downs as human cultures sometimes fell profoundly into periods
    backward evolution. At least in Europe... primarily because
    the cultures there were based on value systems not well suited
    to advanced civilizations.
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 13, 2014
  7. Civilization on this side of the pond has mostly been in decline
    for roughly 500 years. It is however very much open to debate
    as to whether it as fallen quite to the level on the other side.
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 13, 2014
  8. I don't think distortion is exactly the right word here though. It's
    just the rendering that a lens that wide produces, that looks distorted
    to us because of the differences between human vision and a lens
    projection onto a flat plane such as film or a sensor.
    I have seen this lens only once in my life, and I have only seen a few
    photographs taken with it. I haven't seen any test photographs taken
    with it which would prove one way or the other if it can photograph
    (say) a flat grid of squares without distortion but it seems possible.
    It cost half as much as a new car when it was introduced so it'd better
    be good.
    I'm sure it's a fine camera. With a fixed lens I'm sure it was
    possible to design the entire system so that good image quality would
    be the result. It's much the same with the Natura - you can place the
    rear element very close to the image plane which makes good performance
    much easier. This is probably half the secret of Leica's RF lenses as
    well (manufacturing quality and QC being the other).
    Oregonian Haruspex, Mar 13, 2014
  9. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    As opposed to you?
    It is very obvious to me that you've never talked to an anthropologist.
    Weren't you supposed to quote me saying that agriculture is a *requirement*
    for a civilization, not merely "important"?

    You fail even harder for each and every post you make.

    Of course there's a distinction between hunter gatherers and a
    civilization. Surely not even you can be so ignorant to claim otherwise?
    I call you ignorant.
    I'll let you know if such a person should arrive in the thread. In the
    meantime, go lookup opinions from people like Arnold Toynbee and Carroll
    Quigley for some historic reference, and perhaps Andrew Bosworth, Shepard
    Clough, Rushton Coulborn, Christopher Dawson and even Laina Farat-Holzman.
    Need more? Some current anthropoligists:

    Laina Farat Holzman
    "A civilization must have a concentration of people in one or more urban

    "It must have division of labor and specialization, and it must have a
    surplus of food to be used in support of such specializations"

    Dario Fernandez-Morera
    "A Civilization is indicated by the presence of a city or cities"

    "This would exclude groups of wooden houses forming a village or a group of
    villages forming an association of villages. That is not a civilization,
    but a culture of some kind which has not yet reached a civilization stage"

    Matthew Melko
    "Civilizations are large and complex cultures, usually distinguished from
    simpler cultures by greater control of environment, including the practice
    of agriculture on a large scale and the domestication of animals"

    Andrew Targowski:
    "A civilization is an info-material structure developed by humans to cope
    effectively with themselves, nature, and their Creator (God or Big-Bang).
    It is a vibrant ‘interface’ which differentiates civilized humans from
    animals and primitive tribes."

    Basically - you brought a knife to a gun fight and got run over hard,
    Keep on telling yourself that, Floyd. What I find a joke is your
    Now you're outright lying.
    I already knew your reading comprehension was bad, but this is really
    pushing it. You got one thing right though - a written language is a good
    sign of a civilization. May be the first correct thing you've written thus
    Your ignorance about current anthropology does not interest me.
    Incorrect. Why is reading so hard for you?
    Incorrect. And it's still not "my" criteria.
    Floyd, roadkill yet again.
    Nope. Or do you want to make a claim that nation = civilization? That would
    be hilarious. Please do.
    I bet you can't. You obviously think that tribes = municipal for whatever
    What tribe do you live in, Floyd? :-D
    Man, you're up to your chin in bullshit by now.
    Yes, really.
    Yes, this is the level of your complete and utter ignorance. I thin k
    perhaps you brought a balloon to a gun fight.
    Indeed I have.
    My god you're dense. I remember how Tony was all in awe about Floyd the
    master troll as if he looked up to you. You're one of the worst most
    underachieving and moronic trolls I've ever come across. SO full of
    yourself that you can't see that you have nothing to bring to any subject
    but idocy and hot air.
    Sandman, Mar 13, 2014
  10. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Mostly due to the punishment, murdering and enslavement of lots of people :)
    Sandman, Mar 13, 2014
  11. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Peter noted that. It was his intention to show the invalidity of his
    definition by example. Had we been face to face, issue avoidance would
    not have been available, as a technique.

    Agreed. His basic statement that there were no civilizations on the
    North American Continent is a classical example of European arrogance.

    If he bothered to read the reference I gave him, he would have realized
    that there is a coloration between the Cherokee language and the ancient
    Phonetician language.

    He talks like he believes in the white mans burden.
    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  12. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Is it reasonable to assume that the king paid him to do the queen.
    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  13. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    The effect of the dry climate of the Middle East on artifact
    preservation seems to escape our Nordic friend.
    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  14. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Uh, yeah.. that's what distortion is - it's generally called barrel
    distortion and is when magnification lessens with distance from the center
    It's mostly found on zoom lenses or wide angle lenses. But pretty much all
    lenses have some form of distortion.
    It costs even more now. Only test photos taken with it online that I know
    of is from Ken Rockwell:


    But I remember seeing test images in brochures and marketing material back
    in the day.
    Sandman, Mar 13, 2014
  15. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Is it reasonable to assume that the king paid him to do the queen.
    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  16. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    In theory it could happen.
    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  17. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Very possible. We are really drifting.

    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  18. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    You have stated beliefs, without support. As Floyd pointed out, your
    basic premise is badly flawed.
    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
  19. Barrel distortion is not the same as the rendering a wide angle lens
    gives. A properly corrected wide angle lens will maintain parallel
    vertical and horizontal lines (say on a test grid) all the way to the
    edge of the frame. A lens with barrel distortion will curve the lines
    as they approach the edges of the frame.

    Every lens has some sort of optical flaws. You can not simultaneously
    correct for all aberrations. Some process lenses are nearly
    distortion-free but they are generally made to focus on a subject a
    fixed distance away from the lens and often with light of a specific
    wavelength. These lenses will usually show some distortion, color
    correction failures, etc if focused further or closer than intended.


    This is not the same as barrel distortion, which is a failure to
    maintain parallel lines.
    Oregonian Haruspex, Mar 13, 2014
  20. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    PeterN, Mar 13, 2014
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