The perfect vacation camera?

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Sandman, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Your quotes/paraphrases all seem to have come from the same source:
    http://www.wmich.edu/iscsc/civilization.html
    Now that's not an accurate quote of what was actually written. See the
    above URL.
    This is from the same URL once again and refers to what he believes
    *indicates* the presence of civilization i.e. the presence of
    monuments of some kind.
    That would exclude much of Scandinavian history.
    Not a mention of monuments.
    Surely you don't think that selected quotes from a single Internet
    site enables you to claim victory over someone who has lived close to
    anthropology for many years.

    In fact, after reading that site, I came away with the firm impression
    that the writers were very like the three blind men trying to describe
    an elephant - except that describing what it is that defines a
    civilization is much more complex than describing an elephant.

    --- snip ---
     
    Eric Stevens, Mar 13, 2014
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  2. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Most insightful and intelligent post you've yet to make in this thread.
    GOod work, Peter!
     
    Sandman, Mar 13, 2014
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  3. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I am strongly of the opinion that this image has been subjected to
    some kind of geometrical correction in post processing. It is not
    possible for a hand-held camera to be positioned absolutely
    perpendicularly to the floor as this one appears to have been.
     
    Eric Stevens, Mar 13, 2014
  4. Sandman

    J. Clarke Guest

    Most major manufacturers have a rectilinear lens in that focal range--
    Canon has a 14mm for example. Typically distortion is around 2-3
    percent, which is noticeable on a rectangular grid but not anything
    resembling fish-eye levels. Ken Rockwell shows a tile floor shot with
    the Nikon 13mm and comparing with grids shot with the 14mm Canon the
    Nikon looks subjectively to have less distortion, possibly under 1
    percent.

    Most manufacturers also have APS-C zooms in the equivalent range--the
    10-22 Canon for example has distortion below 2 percent across its range
    and a sweet spot where it is less than 0.1 percent. Sigma has an 8-16,
    even wider on APS-C than the 13mm Nikon is on 35mm, that hits about 3
    percent distortion at the wide end but is below 1 percent from 12mm on.

    Note that looking at the lens tests on photozone.de can give a good
    "feel" for what the different degrees of distortion represent--they show
    the rectangular grid for each lens.
     
    J. Clarke, Mar 13, 2014
  5. I think you're probably right about this. Even on a tripod I usually
    use a bubble level to ensure perpendicularity if that is my objective,
    as the slightest tilt is impossible to see in the finder.

    Wouldn't be the first time Rockwell was caught out.
     
    Oregonian Haruspex, Mar 14, 2014
  6. So you deny writing the cited messages? Hmmm...
    It has already been pointed out that the history of anthropology
    is one of abject racism and Euro-centricity. Citing any
    anthropologist who was educated and published while that was the
    mainstay of anthropology demonstrates a total lack of
    comprehension of this topic.

    Regardless, your list is interesting. You went to the ISCSC web
    page and cherry picked names and quotes, even though most of the
    quotes provided on that web page do not support your comments
    here, and it is doubtful that you even understand the ones you
    cite.
    Of course you do mean Laina Farhat-Holzman.
    ....
    Cites that either oppose you beliefs (Melko) or simply have nothing
    to do with what we have been discussing.
    That one actually is a useful and interesting quote. Targowski is not an
    anthropologist, he is steeped in Information Technology. His interest
    is not defining historical civilizations, but rather defining the future.
    Proclamations of grandeur from someone who has lost the debate...
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 14, 2014
  7. Sandman

    Tony Cooper Guest

    Are you somehow under the impression that the climate in Florida
    approximates the climate in the Middle East?
     
    Tony Cooper, Mar 14, 2014
  8. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Colonisation can be better than the prior technique which tended to be
    invasion and slaughter.
     
    Eric Stevens, Mar 14, 2014
  9. Sandman

    Savageduck Guest

    For Spain it was all done in the name of the throne and the zeal of the
    missionaries invoking the Church. For those missionaries lost in their
    Catholic self righteousness, it was a case of convert and save the
    conquered, or kill them, and many times it was kill them even if you
    converted them. Such was the fate of Atahualpa at the hands of Pizarro.
    It was also the fate of many of the native North Americans throughout
    the Sout west and on the West Coast from Baja California all the way up
    the mission route along El Camino Real to San Francisco.
     
    Savageduck, Mar 14, 2014
  10. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    That's why I said 'can' be better. At that general time, Spain was
    savage and brutal in most of their contacts with cultures which were
    militarily less powerful.

    Belgian colonisation was a horror story too.
     
    Eric Stevens, Mar 14, 2014
  11. Exactly the opposite.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 14, 2014
  12. Sandman

    Tony Cooper Guest

    Sandman has informed us that a he will soon be visiting Florida. Once
    here, he will be disabused of that impression.
     
    Tony Cooper, Mar 14, 2014
  13. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Haha! See what I mean? The typical underachieving troll will join the
    discussion with one cite, then get run over by 6-7 cites and his only reply
    - put his finger in his ears and say "it doesn't count, it doesn't
    count!!!!"

    My god you're bad at this.
    Yeah, you tried - got run over and now you're roadkill. Better luck next
    time!
     
    Sandman, Mar 14, 2014
  14. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Seriously? I mean, you have a viewfinder on cameras you know, you actually
    get to see through it and line up the camera to the floor. Take a couple of
    shots and select the straightest one.

    Ken Rockwell might not be the most serious camera reviewer out there, but
    as far as I know, he doesn't have a history of tampering with sample
    images.

    Here's another shot:

    <http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/13mm/distortion/D3L_5621-1200.jpg>

    That's really low distortion.
     
    Sandman, Mar 14, 2014
  15. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    This is not a field where decisions are reached by counting votes. Six
    or seven carefully selected wrong cites are no guide as to what is
    right.
    So far you have read an on-line dictionary and cherry-picked one web
    page. You will have to do better than that.
    Says the vociferous ignoramus.
     
    Eric Stevens, Mar 14, 2014
  16. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Let's see you do it with a target as demanding as that tiled floor. I
    know I couldn't, although I might eventually manage it with a tripod.
    Is that horizon due purely to hand holding? I doubt it.
     
    Eric Stevens, Mar 14, 2014
  17. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    I don't have a tiled floor anywhere near, but I do have some straight lines
    in my office floor. This is a quick shot I took with my iPhone:

    <http://sandman.net/files/iphone_distortion.jpg>

    It's slightly skewed in the bottom right, not perfectly aligned, but shows
    that taking such a shot is far from impossible. You have a straight line in
    the top and one to the left. To demonstrate distortion, this suffices just
    fine. And I bet that the skewing in the bottom right corner is mostly due
    to the iPhone having pretty high distortion. I.e. aligning two lines in the
    view will skew the two other ones.

    Only with a lens with such little distortion as the 13mm would it actually
    be *easier* to take such a picture, since you can visually align more lines
    in the viewfinder.
    Well, just because you can't doesn't mean no one can't. The less distortion
    the lens has, the easier such a shot is to take.
    Seriously?? The image has *one* line and it is aligned to the top of the
    viewfinder. Just see my shot above, aligning one line to the top of the
    view is dead easy. Even you could do it. Try it out, you'll be surprised.
    Unless you're drunk. :)
     
    Sandman, Mar 14, 2014
  18. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Well, in a way it is. It is about consensus to a degree. There will always
    be varying opinions about such matters, and things are in constant motion.
    Hehe, "carefully selected".
    Yes, the ISCSC is really a niche player in this field, and their study on
    the matter is pretty much irrelevant... You crack me up. You act as if
    their word was some hastily googled fanboy page that just so happens to
    (mostly) agree with my claims.

    And do better than WHAT, precisely. If you think ISCSC is not relevant in a
    discussion about civilizations, please explain with your own words why.
    This is yet another case of you just disagreeing with me because it's me -
    ISCSC be damned! You can't come up with a reason why the study from ISCSC
    is wrong or inaccurate or even invalid, you just join the thread to bash on
    me. Sorry, that won't fly, Eric.

    Floyd at least tried. Sure, his attempt was to plug his fingers in his ears
    and shout "doesn't count, doesn't count!!!", but at least he tried, bunred
    and plummeted to the ground. You haven't even tried - you've just joined to
    argue and disagree.
    As opposed to Eric Stevens, who has contributed exactly zero facts to the
    discussion. Ooops.
     
    Sandman, Mar 14, 2014
  19. He'll be drenched by the difference...
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 14, 2014
  20. Did you think that just any cite was good enough? Try to find
    something that is both credible and pertinent.

    You only quoted 4 people, and three of the quotes had nothing to
    do with anything we had discussed.

    Pretty good demonstration that you didn't even understand the
    significance of bringing up the study of anthropology.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Mar 14, 2014
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