The Photoshop Family

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by Sandman, Feb 12, 2014.

  1. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    where do you come up with this shit?

    of course i was responding to his comment.
    he made it up.
    if only you'd do the same.

    in the one short sentence above, i clearly say where you lied.

    however, since that's obviously too complicated for you, here are the
    exact words you wrote, in isolation:
    that is a lie. period.
    duh what? tony said something stupid. if anything, he needs the hints
    (and a whole lot more).
    here's a hint for you: just because tony can't understand basic english
    doesn't mean the rest of the world can't. what i wrote was not
    complicated and perfectly clear.
     
    Guest, Feb 21, 2014
    #81
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  2. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    But he never said anything about people outside this news group while
    you most clearly were.
    He used it when he opened the subject. Go back and read what he said
    if you don't believe me.
    I haven't accused you of lying, whereas you have accused me of lying.
    It is not a lie as I have already explained above. Tony was writing
    about one thing and you were writing about another.
    Tony's comment should have suggested to you that he was referring only
    to those who hang out in this news group. He was hinting that your
    reference to 'millions' could not be relevant to his comment about
    'this news group'. Unfortunately it sailed right passed you.
    Tony can't understand the meaning of what he wrote but you can, is
    that it?
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 21, 2014
    #82
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  3. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Jonas's final line (above) is clearly wrong. There was nothing to
    suggest a different set of people were being discussed.
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 21, 2014
    #83
  4. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    On 2/21/2014 10:12 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:


    whenever I read an opposing brief that stated something like: "..it is
    perfectly clear that......" It rarely took less than ten pages to
    explain what was so clear.
     
    PeterN, Feb 21, 2014
    #84
  5. Sandman

    PeterN Guest

    Correct. Now apologize.
     
    PeterN, Feb 21, 2014
    #85
  6. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Learn to write what you really mean. Most people don't find it
    difficult.
    If you ever say anything 'exactly'.
    The majority of important output is to anything but RGB. Professionals
    sweat blood in CMYK, LCh, CIEL*a*b*, HSB/HSL or whatever in their
    eforts to ensure the final printed output meets their original
    expectations.
    Then
    http://pugetsoundblogs.com/peninsular-thinking/files/2011/02/FordPinto1971.jpg
    is essentially the same as
    http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/gt10.jpg

    The list of features that are common between the two is *much*, *much*
    longer than the list of features which are different.
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 22, 2014
    #86
  7. Incidental to this silly argument about the semantics, you both
    seem to have missed the grossest error of all! Epson printers
    are virtually all CMYK devices. I don't know that any inkjet
    printer is an RGB defice, though I suppose there might be some.

    Look at the inks that Espon uses... no Blue, no Red, and no
    Green (except in the latest 10 ink printers that add Orange and
    Green to CMYK). They all use Cyan (perhaps two shades), Magenta
    (perhaps two shades) and Yellow, plus one or more shades of
    Black.

    The device driver, running on the computer not the printer,
    deals with an RGB image. It can also deal with a CMYK image
    too. But what it sends to the printer absolutely is CMYK and
    not RGB.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Feb 22, 2014
    #87
  8. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    all consumer printers and prosumer printers, including epson, canon,
    hp, lexmark, etc. are rgb devices.

    note that i said rgb *devices*, not rgb printers. there is a difference.

    the user works in rgb and sends rgb to the printer. thus, it is an rgb
    *device*. just about all consumer software is rgb only. they can't work
    in cmyk even if they wanted to.

    in fact, epson says to convert cmyk images *to* rgb to print it.

    the fact that the data is ultimately converted to cmyk ink (or ccmmyk
    or hexachrome or whatever the printer uses) does not matter to the user
    since they are not participating in that conversion. it's done for them
    automatically.

    the printer is a black box (sometimes literally). the user works on an
    rgb image, picks print, chooses paper type and whatever other options
    and moments later, has a print, all entirely in rgb. what goes on
    behind the scenes doesn't matter.

    if the printers were cmyk devices, then the user would have to do their
    own cmyk conversions each time they wanted to print, and they do not.

    pros might want to do that (some do, not all) but consumers do not.

    many years ago, adobe had a software rip for cmyk conversions. it used
    a *different* driver than the standard epson driver and only certain
    epson printers were supported. it was discontinued since not very many
    people wanted it. they all printed in rgb.
    that's why it's an rgb device.
    sometimes. not always.
    what happens after the user clicks print does not matter.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #88
  9. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    of course i was talking about people outside this newsgroup because
    photoshop is not restricted to only people in this newsgroup.

    adobe understands the market, so they designed two versions of the same
    app to address two segments. simple concept.

    many companies do the same thing, sometimes with more than just one
    version. just look at the various versions of windows. why stop at just
    two?
    when you say i did something which i did not do, what other conclusion
    is there?
    because he failed to understand what i wrote, as has been said several
    times now.
    that's because he didn't understand the obvious.

    i doubt there are 1000 people reading this newsgroup, let alone
    millions, and not all readers have photoshop (any version) anyway.

    thus it could not be possible for it to have referred to 1 million
    readers of this newsgroup.

    the mere thought is ludicrous.
    no. that too is wrong.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #89
  10. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    good thing that usenet posts aren't legal briefs.

    try to stay on topic.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #90
  11. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    for what?

    and thanks for agreeing that what i write is clear.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #91
  12. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    some pros do. not all.

    and i see you're now twisting it to 'important output'. who decides
    that?
    no and the reasons should be obvious.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #92
  13. BS son, it just ain't so. And that is very obvious!

    The device is the mechanical part of it. The part that uses ink.
    Yep. Sure. "device" is spelled starting with a d and printers are not!

    And the fact that no inkjet printer is an RGB device.
    Wrong. The printer gets CMYK data.
    So the computer software is RGB, not CMYK. Okay, you're getting there!
    It does not.
    They precipitate it, and then it is automatically sent to the CMYK printer.
    The do! Do you know anyone that doesn't use a print driver to convert
    to CMYK before they send the data to the printer???
    No, they all edit in RGB. They all print in CMYK.
    Yes, exactly! The computer is an RGB device (mostly because it
    has an RGB monitor to display on).
    Apparently it does, or nothing would necessarily work.

    Admit it, you used the wrong concept in an attempt at being more
    geeky than thou, and got caught. It was a stupid argument, and
    your squirming around on the end of the line with a hook in you
    anus isn't making your argument any less stupid.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Feb 22, 2014
    #93
  14. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    OK: you weren't referring to the same group of people that Tony had
    mentioned. That's why it was not really a surprise when you later
    wrote: "millions could *only* have referred to adobe customers and
    not usenet participants". So you weren't responding to Tony. You seem
    to have been starting another branch of the thread.
    So apparently different Ford cars are just various versions of the
    same Ford car. Which one do you think is the parent?
    When discussing things with you I am more likely to say you are
    confused than to acuse you of lying.
    But he wrote first. From my position it looks as though you failed to
    understand (or more likely just ignored) what he had written and set
    off at a tangent.
    But he wrote first. What you wrote was written in reply to him. Who
    was the first to have to do the understanding in that situation?
    Thank you. Now you are back to responding to Tony's original point and
    I have to say I agree with you.
    Oh God! What are you struggling to say? Is it that Tony can
    understand the meaning of what he wrote and so too can you?
    No - surely the evidence is against that?

    Could it be that Tony can't understand the meaning of what he wrote
    and neither can you? It's possible but I think it's unfair to Tony who
    normally writes clearly.

    There is a third possibility. You may be saying that Tony can
    understand the meaning of what he wrote but you can't.

    So you left confusion in your wake when you responded to my question
    "Tony can't understand the meaning of what he wrote but you can, is
    that it?" by writing "no. that too is wrong". There are at least three
    possible ways in which my statement might be wrong and you have given
    absolutely no indication of which you had in mind.
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 22, 2014
    #94
  15. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I accept the point you are making and I would have made it myself if I
    hadn't thought it would further confuse the argument. The Epson Stylus
    Pro series of image printers use a form of CMYK but with 10 pigment
    inks to manage they do not use anything like a standard CMYK input. In
    fact they do not use all 10 inks in any one image in that the blacks
    that they use depend upon the paper the image is being printed on.

    Other Epson printers use 7 dye inks plus an 8th which is a gloss
    optimiser. This last is in effect a spot print. These printers do not
    use a standard CMYK input either.
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 22, 2014
    #95
  16. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    it is so, and i'm not your son.
    nope. the printer is the mechanical part. it sits on a table and makes
    noises when it prints (and occasionally when it doesn't). sometimes the
    paper jams. it says printer on the box and sometimes even on the actual
    printer itself.

    it doesn't say epson device (or canon or whatever).
    there's more to it than that, but that's a start.
    inkjets are rgb *devices* and they expect rgb data.

    however, they are not rgb printers because they use cmyk inks.

    there is a difference and it isn't limited to inkjet either.

    cmyk input (if supported, and it isn't always) will be converted *back*
    to rgb so that the printer can do its normal conversion to cmyk, ccmmyk
    or whatever inkset it has.

    that's why you don't send cmyk to an inkjet printer unless you have a
    rip and know how to use it, which consumers almost certainly won't.
    this is especially true for the printers with more than c,m,y & k.

    in other words, they're rgb devices.
    see above.
    i'm already there. you are not.

    since you agree that the computer software is rgb, then it must talk to
    rgb devices. otherwise it would need cmyk functionality.
    oh yes, they most certainly do. here are three random printers:

    <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie
    =yes&infoType=FAQ&oid=23953&prodoid=36033903&foid=34534&cookies=no>
    To print a file saved in CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black)
    format with accurate colors, you first need to convert the file to
    RGB format. Your printer software automatically converts RGB files to
    your printer¹s 4-color CMYK format. To print with the correct colors,
    convert any CMYK-format input files to RGB format before printing.
    For the best results, create your original print files in the RGB
    color space.

    <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie
    =yes&infoType=News&oid=94511&noteoid=92205&cookies=no>
    Your image files should be in RGB (red, green, and blue) format. If
    you saved your images in CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black)
    format you will need to convert the files back to RGB before printing
    them. Your printer software is designed to print from RGB files. For
    the best results, create your original print files in RGB format.

    <http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie
    =yes&infoType=News&oid=173163&prodoid=63090295&noteoid=92205&cookies=no>

    Your image files should be in RGB (red, green, and blue) format.
    If you saved your images in CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black)
    format you will need to convert the files back to RGB before printing
    them. Your printer software is designed to print from RGB files. For
    the best results, create your original print files in RGB format.
    for that to be true, the apps would have to convert to cmyk to send to
    the printer and they do not.

    the apps send rgb and the printer takes care of the rest.

    at some point before the ink nozzles (assuming inkjet), that data is
    converted to cmyk (or whatever set of inks the printer has), but where
    and when and how that happens is an implementation detail that makes no
    difference to the user. the printer manufacturers know how to make the
    printers produce the best results and have a vested interest in doing
    so.

    some users might want their own rips and do their own cmyk conversions
    but they're not typical consumers.
    i don't know anyone who uses a printer driver. nobody sits down at
    their computer and digs through the various system folders to find a
    printer driver and then double-clicks it to use it in some way.

    i know a lot of people who use apps.

    the apps use various parts of the operating system, including using a
    printer driver, video driver, etc. the users just use the apps.

    the printer drivers might not even be on the computer at all, such as
    with airprint and cloudprint as well as postscript. it's rather
    difficult for someone to use something that's not there.
    the edit and print in rgb because their entire workflow is in rgb. even
    the printer profiles are rgb. it's all rgb.

    if the apps don't support cmyk, and almost all do not, then they can't
    print in cmyk even if they wanted to.
    i'm talking about the printer, not the computer.

    the computer isn't really an rgb or a cmyk device. it can handle pretty
    much anything.

    peripherals, such as monitors and printers are rgb devices, and they
    are treated the same by the operating system. the same image data is
    sent to either or both and then the operating system handles whatever
    conversions are needed (if any).

    there are situations where lower level control is needed but it's rare.
    no, not always. airprint doesn't and i'm pretty sure cloudprint doesn't
    either, since it's basically the same concept.

    some os x drivers don't, especially older ones. older classic mac
    drivers didn't.
    as long as it works, the user is happy.

    users don't care if it's rgb, cmyk or little tiny gnomes with crayons.
    there's nothing to admit nor was i caught at anything.

    inkjet printers are rgb devices and they expect rgb data. apps know
    this and send rgb data. end of story.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #96
  17. Sandman

    Guest Guest

    i was referring to tony,

    he said 3 non-pros in this newsgroup chose the full version of
    photoshop, thinking it would somehow disprove my statement that adobe
    targets photoshop elements at non-pros.

    meanwhile, millions of other non-pros get elements.

    it's really very simple.

    and as i said many times, it's not a clear line. some non-pros get the
    full version and some pros get elements.
    the mercury bobcat and ford pinto are the same car, other than the
    emblem and some trim.

    same for the dodge omni and plymouth horizon.

    a lot of cars have 'twins'. not all though.

    obviously a mustang isn't the same as a crown vic, but nobody said it
    was. just looking at those should be sufficient to figure out they're
    different.

    however, if a pinto and a bobcat were parked outside, you might not be
    able to tell the difference until you were fairly close.
    what i wrote was in response to what he wrote.

    apparently neither of you understood it. i don't know why, since there
    could only have been one interpretation but somehow, you managed to
    come up with something else.
    that's why 'millions' could *only* have referred to adobe customers.
     
    Guest, Feb 22, 2014
    #97
  18. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Umm. I can work in RGB, Lab, CMYK and Multichannel. What I send to the
    printer has to be first converted to control 10 ink cartridges. While
    the input _might_ start off as RGB most certainly not coded as a
    simple RGB when it is sent off to the printer. As I have already
    discussed with Floyd, the nature of the ink sets mean that it is, if
    anything, a form of CMYK.
    That's referring to whatever is being fed to the printer driver, not
    to what is being fed to the printer.
    Yes, but by what?
    I can pick a Lab image.
    I don't think that's riht, at least not in the standard Windows world.
    The software has to output a standard Windows image stream which can
    then be directed to the printer of the user's choice. It doesn't
    matter to my copies of Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, DxO, NX2, Word
    Perfect, Paradox, Quattro Pro, Visual Cadd etc whether they are
    printing to my Epson Stylus Pro 3800 on my network or my Oki 5600,
    also on my network. The print output stream from each application has
    to conform with the requirements of Windows. The original format of
    the image shouldn't matter to the printer driver. What will matter is
    whether the input stream is properly formatted.
    When dealing with Photoshop etc, it actually deals with the stream
    output by the colour engine for printing.
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 22, 2014
    #98
  19. Sandman

    Eric Stevens Guest

    The person who may be sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars into
    the print project. It might be an annual report and balance sheet, it
    may be a glossy magazine, it may be a large book of glossy
    photographs. The printing processes involved mean that simple RGB is
    rarely good enough to meet the challenges of commercial printing.
    That's why you haven't given them, I suppose. Is it too much to ask?
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 22, 2014
    #99
  20. The only Epson inkjets that are not "standard CMYK" are the 10 ink
    models like the SP4900, SP7900 etc. They have an Orange and a Green
    ink added to the basic CMYK. (Actually they can printw without the
    two extra colors, in a pure CMYK mode, and you'd be hard pressed to
    see a difference without a side by side comparison of a print chosen
    to demonstrate it.)

    All of the 8 ink models use nothing but CMYK inks. They have two
    shades of Cyan, two shades of Magenta and three Shades of Black.
    That makes them purely CMYK devices.

    The fact that they switch betweem Photo Black and Matte Black has
    nothing to do with being a CMYK printer. They can in fact use Photo
    Black on Matte paper, with a relatively slight loss of density. The
    Matte ink has better density, but if it is used on Glossy paper the
    ink can be rubbed off very easily.

    And the optimiser (these are all pigment inks, not dye inks) is not
    a color, it's a coating. So that too has nothing at all to do with
    it being CMYK.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Feb 22, 2014
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