The Real Kodak

Discussion in 'Kodak' started by Gregory W. Blank, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. This is one of the many reasons I like Kodak:

     
    Gregory W. Blank, Oct 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. Gregory W. Blank

    Frank Pittel Guest

    I also like Kodak for B&W film and slide film. In fact in both cases I think their
    slide film and B&W films are the best on the market. I don't however use their c41
    film or their B&W paper. I like the Seagull and Berger papers to much to switch
    and I got tired of them changing their c41 films every time I got used to the
    "latest" version.

    : This is one of the many reasons I like Kodak:

    : In article <blsdrb$ioe$>,

    : > Greetings Greg,
    : >
    : > You are right Greg, let me post some general information about Kodak
    : > traditional papers. I think you will see that the numbers presented here
    : > before do not coincide with other research. In a previous posting I alluded
    : > to prints really being subject to how they are processed, stored, and where
    : > they are stored or displayed, is most important.
    : >
    : > "Kodak recognizes the importance and value of color prints to consumers, and
    : > the need for their prints to have a useful lifetime that extends over
    : > generations. Accordingly, we routinely evaluate our color papers for
    : > longevity and integrate new technologies that contribute to the exceptional
    : > image permanence of our products.
    : >
    : > Today's KODAK photographic color papers are all vastly superior to Kodak
    : > papers made in the 60's, 70's, or even the early 80's. In fact, our papers
    : > today are significantly improved over those made just 7 or 8 years ago.
    : > Technological advancements over the last 40 years have helped us to produce
    : > papers that provide better image quality, ease of use, and image permanence.
    : >
    : > The image stability of today's color negative (RA-4) paper is dependent upon
    : > many factors, although mainly temperature, relative humidity and light. To
    : > help ensure that images printed today continue to last well into the future,
    : > be sure that the prints are processed correctly and stored or displayed
    : > using proper, acid-free storage materials. Residual chemicals or poor
    : > post-process handling may cause premature aging of a print. If you plan on
    : > mounting, sleeving, or storing the print in a protective media, be sure
    : > those materials are not going to react with the paper emulsion (ie: products
    : > containing PVC). Avoid extremes in temperature and humidity; avoid extended
    : > exposure to high intensity illumination such as direct sunlight. Additional
    : > information on proper handling of Kodak photographic papers may be found in
    : > publication, E-30, STORAGE AND CARE OF KODAK PHOTOGRAPHIC MATERIALS, Before
    : > and After Processing. This document is on our website at:
    : >
    : > http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30Con
    : > tents.shtml.
    : > (You may need to copy and paste these links into your web browser in order
    : > to access these pages.)
    : >
    : > There are generally two typical storage conditions routinely encountered by
    : > consumer color prints: prints displayed in the home, and prints stored in an
    : > album ("home display" and "album keeping", respectively). In the case of
    : > "album" storage, where "album" might refer to a traditional photo album or
    : > simple placement in a box, the image dyes forming the image are subject to
    : > decay by relative humidity and thermal reactions that occur at very slow
    : > rates. In addition to the thermal and relative humidity reactions, prints
    : > that are on display in the home are also subject to the effects of light
    : > degradation. Because prints undergo both conditions of storage, Kodak
    : > evaluates the permanence of our color prints under both circumstances and
    : > determines image permanence as a function of light, relative humidity and
    : > temperature experienced in real-world conditions.
    : >
    : > Color prints made on KODAK EKTACOLOR Edge 8 Paper, KODAK EKTACOLOR ROYAL
    : > VIII Paper, KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper and KODAK PROFESSIONAL
    : > SUPRA ENDURA Paper exhibit exceptional image permanence under both types of
    : > storage described above. Because the permanence of prints produced on these
    : > papers is so long, it is necessary to use accelerated aging test procedures
    : > to estimate the image permanence of these prints in a meaningful timeframe.
    : > The procedures used by Kodak are based on industry standardized testing
    : > methods and conditions as stipulated in the ANSI Standard IT9.9-1996 (the
    : > international version of this standard is ISO 18909). There are additional
    : > references contained in the ANSI Standard justifying the incorporated
    : > procedures for performing accelerated testing of image permanence.
    : >
    : > The ANSI Standard indicates the need to specify ambient temperature,
    : > relative humidity, and light intensity for the testing chosen to be
    : > representative of the intended application of the product. Each of these
    : > factors has been carefully considered and the conditions used for our
    : > testing are representative of typical use of color prints by consumers.
    : > Specifically, the following conditions were defined:
    : >
    : > Average Temperature: 20-25 degrees Celsius
    : > Average Humidity: 50% relative humidity
    : > Average Illumination: 120 lux for 12 hours daily
    : > Starting Density: 1.0 ANSI status A neutral density
    : > End-Point Density: 30% loss
    : >
    : > The choice of 120 lux as the ambient display illumination intensity is based
    : > on information contained in the Journal of Imaging Technology, Volume 17,
    : > Number 3, June/July 1991 describing ambient display conditions for prints.
    : > Although stored/displayed prints will experience conditions that deviate
    : > both positively and negatively from the average conditions listed above,
    : > over the long periods of time required to cause significant degradation of
    : > image quality of prints made on these papers to the above conditions
    : > represent meaningful averages.
    : >
    : > Based on these conditions, the image permanence for color prints made on
    : > EKTACOLOR Edge 8, ROYAL VIII, PORTRA ENDURA and SUPRA ENDURA papers has been
    : > determined to be:
    : >
    : > Home Display: over 100 years
    : > Album Keeping: over 200 years
    : >
    : > You should find that this exceeds any other manufacturer in the market on
    : > image stability.
    : >
    : > For additional information on image permanence, please refer to the article
    : > written by Dr. Robert E. McComb, "Separating Facts From Fiction: Examining
    : > Photo Prints, Judging Image Stability On 'Real-World' Factors-Only." Dr.
    : > McComb, a retired physical scientist, was employed at the Preservation
    : > Research & Testing Office of the Library of Congress and as a member of
    : > American National Standards Institute's (ANSI) standards committees, is a
    : > subject matter expert on image permanence. This article discusses various
    : > aspects of color-negative paper image stability. Dr. McComb's article can
    : > be found on the Kodak Website at:
    : >
    : > http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/education/imageStability.sht
    : > ml
    : >
    : > If you have any further questions on this issue, please feel free to call us
    : > at the number below."
    : >
    : > Let me know if there are questions.
    : >
    : > Ron Baird
    : > Kodak
    : >
    : >
    : >
    : >
    : > : > > In article <[email protected]>,
    : > > (Tom Monego) wrote:
    : > >
    : > > > Kodak paper is only rated for 14
    : > > > years.
    : > >
    : > > I cannot imagine this is any where near true as I have Kodak mini
    : > > lab prints well over 20 years old,....not to mention
    : > > the thousands of color prints I have made myself.
    : > >
    : > > I also have an Epson print B&W I did less than 2 years ago
    : > > getting a little ambient sun (not direct) that is to my eye starting
    : > > to turn orange,...Its an Ilford photo paper print.
    : > >
    : > > --

    : --


    : website:
    : http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Oct 7, 2003
    #2
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  3. Gregory W. Blank

    Mike Marty Guest

    Some say that Kodak Portra 400UC is the very best C-41 film on the market
    right now. Gives the grain of a 100 ISO film at 400-speed. Unfortunately
    its expensive...

    For getting so much flap, I think Kodak still has some pretty nice products
    on the market.

    Even Mr. Kodak Hater himself, M. Scarpitti, won't deny that he loves
    Kodachrome.
     
    Mike Marty, Oct 7, 2003
    #3
  4. Gregory W. Blank

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : Some say that Kodak Portra 400UC is the very best C-41 film on the market
    : right now. Gives the grain of a 100 ISO film at 400-speed. Unfortunately
    : its expensive...

    That's what I hear and I may try the porta 160 someday. I like the slower speeds
    for my film. I try to stick with ~100 speed film and use 400 when I can't use the
    100. After Kodak discontinued their 100 speed royal gold I switched to Fuji's
    160NPS and haven't looked back.

    : For getting so much flap, I think Kodak still has some pretty nice products
    : on the market.

    I think a lot of people like the nice products that Kodak makes. That why you
    hear from so many upset people when Kodak makes a change to their film or paper.

    : Even Mr. Kodak Hater himself, M. Scarpitti, won't deny that he loves
    : Kodachrome.



    : : > I also like Kodak for B&W film and slide film. In fact in both cases I
    : think their
    : > slide film and B&W films are the best on the market. I don't however use
    : their c41
    : > film or their B&W paper. I like the Seagull and Berger papers to much to
    : switch
    : > and I got tired of them changing their c41 films every time I got used to
    : the
    : > "latest" version.
    : >
    : > : This is one of the many reasons I like Kodak:
    : >
    : > : In article <blsdrb$ioe$>,
    : >
    : > : > Greetings Greg,
    : > : >
    : > : > You are right Greg, let me post some general information about Kodak
    : > : > traditional papers. I think you will see that the numbers presented
    : here
    : > : > before do not coincide with other research. In a previous posting I
    : alluded
    : > : > to prints really being subject to how they are processed, stored, and
    : where
    : > : > they are stored or displayed, is most important.
    : > : >
    : > : > "Kodak recognizes the importance and value of color prints to
    : consumers, and
    : > : > the need for their prints to have a useful lifetime that extends over
    : > : > generations. Accordingly, we routinely evaluate our color papers for
    : > : > longevity and integrate new technologies that contribute to the
    : exceptional
    : > : > image permanence of our products.
    : > : >
    : > : > Today's KODAK photographic color papers are all vastly superior to
    : Kodak
    : > : > papers made in the 60's, 70's, or even the early 80's. In fact, our
    : papers
    : > : > today are significantly improved over those made just 7 or 8 years
    : ago.
    : > : > Technological advancements over the last 40 years have helped us to
    : produce
    : > : > papers that provide better image quality, ease of use, and image
    : permanence.
    : > : >
    : > : > The image stability of today's color negative (RA-4) paper is
    : dependent upon
    : > : > many factors, although mainly temperature, relative humidity and
    : light. To
    : > : > help ensure that images printed today continue to last well into the
    : future,
    : > : > be sure that the prints are processed correctly and stored or
    : displayed
    : > : > using proper, acid-free storage materials. Residual chemicals or poor
    : > : > post-process handling may cause premature aging of a print. If you
    : plan on
    : > : > mounting, sleeving, or storing the print in a protective media, be
    : sure
    : > : > those materials are not going to react with the paper emulsion (ie:
    : products
    : > : > containing PVC). Avoid extremes in temperature and humidity; avoid
    : extended
    : > : > exposure to high intensity illumination such as direct sunlight.
    : Additional
    : > : > information on proper handling of Kodak photographic papers may be
    : found in
    : > : > publication, E-30, STORAGE AND CARE OF KODAK PHOTOGRAPHIC MATERIALS,
    : Before
    : > : > and After Processing. This document is on our website at:
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30Con
    : > : > tents.shtml.
    : > : > (You may need to copy and paste these links into your web browser in
    : order
    : > : > to access these pages.)
    : > : >
    : > : > There are generally two typical storage conditions routinely
    : encountered by
    : > : > consumer color prints: prints displayed in the home, and prints stored
    : in an
    : > : > album ("home display" and "album keeping", respectively). In the case
    : of
    : > : > "album" storage, where "album" might refer to a traditional photo
    : album or
    : > : > simple placement in a box, the image dyes forming the image are
    : subject to
    : > : > decay by relative humidity and thermal reactions that occur at very
    : slow
    : > : > rates. In addition to the thermal and relative humidity reactions,
    : prints
    : > : > that are on display in the home are also subject to the effects of
    : light
    : > : > degradation. Because prints undergo both conditions of storage, Kodak
    : > : > evaluates the permanence of our color prints under both circumstances
    : and
    : > : > determines image permanence as a function of light, relative humidity
    : and
    : > : > temperature experienced in real-world conditions.
    : > : >
    : > : > Color prints made on KODAK EKTACOLOR Edge 8 Paper, KODAK EKTACOLOR
    : ROYAL
    : > : > VIII Paper, KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA ENDURA Paper and KODAK
    : PROFESSIONAL
    : > : > SUPRA ENDURA Paper exhibit exceptional image permanence under both
    : types of
    : > : > storage described above. Because the permanence of prints produced on
    : these
    : > : > papers is so long, it is necessary to use accelerated aging test
    : procedures
    : > : > to estimate the image permanence of these prints in a meaningful
    : timeframe.
    : > : > The procedures used by Kodak are based on industry standardized
    : testing
    : > : > methods and conditions as stipulated in the ANSI Standard IT9.9-1996
    : (the
    : > : > international version of this standard is ISO 18909). There are
    : additional
    : > : > references contained in the ANSI Standard justifying the incorporated
    : > : > procedures for performing accelerated testing of image permanence.
    : > : >
    : > : > The ANSI Standard indicates the need to specify ambient temperature,
    : > : > relative humidity, and light intensity for the testing chosen to be
    : > : > representative of the intended application of the product. Each of
    : these
    : > : > factors has been carefully considered and the conditions used for our
    : > : > testing are representative of typical use of color prints by
    : consumers.
    : > : > Specifically, the following conditions were defined:
    : > : >
    : > : > Average Temperature: 20-25 degrees Celsius
    : > : > Average Humidity: 50% relative humidity
    : > : > Average Illumination: 120 lux for 12 hours daily
    : > : > Starting Density: 1.0 ANSI status A neutral density
    : > : > End-Point Density: 30% loss
    : > : >
    : > : > The choice of 120 lux as the ambient display illumination intensity is
    : based
    : > : > on information contained in the Journal of Imaging Technology, Volume
    : 17,
    : > : > Number 3, June/July 1991 describing ambient display conditions for
    : prints.
    : > : > Although stored/displayed prints will experience conditions that
    : deviate
    : > : > both positively and negatively from the average conditions listed
    : above,
    : > : > over the long periods of time required to cause significant
    : degradation of
    : > : > image quality of prints made on these papers to the above conditions
    : > : > represent meaningful averages.
    : > : >
    : > : > Based on these conditions, the image permanence for color prints made
    : on
    : > : > EKTACOLOR Edge 8, ROYAL VIII, PORTRA ENDURA and SUPRA ENDURA papers
    : has been
    : > : > determined to be:
    : > : >
    : > : > Home Display: over 100 years
    : > : > Album Keeping: over 200 years
    : > : >
    : > : > You should find that this exceeds any other manufacturer in the market
    : on
    : > : > image stability.
    : > : >
    : > : > For additional information on image permanence, please refer to the
    : article
    : > : > written by Dr. Robert E. McComb, "Separating Facts From Fiction:
    : Examining
    : > : > Photo Prints, Judging Image Stability On 'Real-World' Factors-Only."
    : Dr.
    : > : > McComb, a retired physical scientist, was employed at the Preservation
    : > : > Research & Testing Office of the Library of Congress and as a member
    : of
    : > : > American National Standards Institute's (ANSI) standards committees,
    : is a
    : > : > subject matter expert on image permanence. This article discusses
    : various
    : > : > aspects of color-negative paper image stability. Dr. McComb's article
    : can
    : > : > be found on the Kodak Website at:
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/education/imageStability.sht
    : > : > ml
    : > : >
    : > : > If you have any further questions on this issue, please feel free to
    : call us
    : > : > at the number below."
    : > : >
    : > : > Let me know if there are questions.
    : > : >
    : > : > Ron Baird
    : > : > Kodak
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : >
    : > : > : > : > > In article <[email protected]>,
    : > : > > (Tom Monego) wrote:
    : > : > >
    : > : > > > Kodak paper is only rated for 14
    : > : > > > years.
    : > : > >
    : > : > > I cannot imagine this is any where near true as I have Kodak mini
    : > : > > lab prints well over 20 years old,....not to mention
    : > : > > the thousands of color prints I have made myself.
    : > : > >
    : > : > > I also have an Epson print B&W I did less than 2 years ago
    : > : > > getting a little ambient sun (not direct) that is to my eye starting
    : > : > > to turn orange,...Its an Ilford photo paper print.
    : > : > >
    : > : > > --
    : >
    : > : --
    : >
    : >
    : > : website:
    : > : http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank
    : >
    : > --
    : >
    : >
    : >
    : >
    : > Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
    : > -------------------
    : >



    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Oct 7, 2003
    #4
  5. I don't hate Kodak. They have turned their backs on their old
    (superior) marketing practices, alienated a lot of customers, and have
    simply deteriorated to the point of irrelevance. They don't give a
    damn. They have said so in so many words. Their press release on the
    PKL film un-discontinuation was extremely revealing of their thought
    processes. It said basically that if 'you people' really want to make
    this much fuss over a silly little film, we'll let you grovel...and
    we'll spare its life....
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Oct 7, 2003
    #5
  6. Gregory W. Blank

    jjs Guest

    Kodak is a pubic company that has gone the way they do. So look overseas
    for good B&W film. Get over it.
     
    jjs, Oct 7, 2003
    #6
  7. Gregory W. Blank

    Mike Marty Guest

    Kodak exists for one purpose: to make money

    They don't exist to fulfill the desires of hobbyist photographers as I
    think we all know that most of their profits come from Joe Sixpack.

    All of us can have opinions on how Kodak can make the most money, but its
    likely that nobody has a complete picture of everything involved.

    No doubt that Kodak makes business mistakes as I can't imagine the
    bureaucracy inside (I used to work as an engineer for a Fortune-50
    company...unbelievable amounts of stupidity and bureaucracy).
     
    Mike Marty, Oct 7, 2003
    #7
  8. Gregory W. Blank

    John Guest

    The dynamics of a large organization are daunting. The worst case is where
    they employ performance metrics and the employees work all year towards
    their annual evaluation which has NOTHING to do with the success of the
    company. Employees' creativity and productivity is mediated to the least
    pertinent performance.

    IMHO the worst thing about American public companies is the stupid quarterly
    performance report - investors aim for profits every quarter even when it's
    completely unrealistic. The company tries to meet such reports, and is
    _very_ often led to downright deceit and marginally illegal accounting
    methods.

    Kodak may have had it's time in the sun. I suspect a Japanese company will
    eventually win because they don't have to interrupt their viable plan every
    few months. They are in it for the long haul and can plan and behave
    accordingly.

    I do miss the old Kodak, but am looking overseas now.
     
    John, Oct 7, 2003
    #8
  9. I am not advocating purchasing American films
    when the products do not meet the needs of
    the photographer, however don't blame
    Kodak, when foreign firms control the
    market and your forced to pay whatever they
    ask.....hopefully not in the near future.
     
    Gregory W. Blank, Oct 7, 2003
    #9
  10. Gregory W. Blank

    John Guest

    I won't blame anyone. Well, maybe you. :)

    Seriously, I see this whole digital thing as being the precipitous
    technology that will, at long last, liberate film. The more digital work I
    do (the day job), the more film I use for the rest of my work. Strange?
     
    John, Oct 7, 2003
    #10
  11. Suddenly darkroom photo, becomes a tactile art. I must say
    I enjoy cooking almost as much as mixing up a batch of PMK
    and processing the days shots.
     
    Gregory W. Blank, Oct 7, 2003
    #11
  12. But I like Kodachrome too!
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Oct 7, 2003
    #12
  13. Gregory W. Blank

    John Guest

    Here here ! I certainly agree with this ! Allow me to throw in the stock
    market (NYSE, DOW, NASDAQ, etc.) as the leader of this ridiculous practice of
    divesting of the future of America. Were it not for unrealistic expectations of
    many investors and customers, many employees would be leading much happier and
    fulfilling lives. But the writing is on the wall. Unless America reinvests in
    the citizens of this nation, we are doomed to be outsourced and replaced by
    third-world nations like India, Malaysia, China and others.

    Regards,

    John - Photographer & Webmaster
    Website - http://www.darkroompro.com
    Please delete the "_" if replying by mail.
     
    John, Oct 9, 2003
    #13
  14. Gregory W. Blank

    John Guest

    I concur. I just made a nice kettle (16 qts) of chili and love it this
    time of year.


    Regards,

    John - Photographer & Webmaster
    Website - http://www.darkroompro.com
    Please delete the "_" if replying by mail.
     
    John, Oct 9, 2003
    #14
  15. Gregory W. Blank

    Hemi4268 Guest

    The company tries to meet such reports, and is
    Kodak has never played this game. They have nothing to illegally account.

    Remember Kodak stock sold for about $75 in 1975. I think they had one split in
    the 80's. It now sells for about $25 so Kodak has never been on the wave. The
    stock has been flat as a pancake since 1975. They never really recovered from
    the loss of 8mm movie business.

    A $75000 investment in Kodak in 1975 would net you about $50,000 today. Now
    take Merck. A $75,000 investment in 1975 would bring $4 million today. About
    $8 million in 1999.

    Larry
     
    Hemi4268, Oct 9, 2003
    #15
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