What did Santa get everyone this year...

Discussion in 'Digital SLR' started by The Henchman, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. The Henchman

    Guest Guest

    freedom is a problem?
    mac users have those choices too, except for the begging part. apple is
    often very generous in fixing things. for example, it's not unheard of
    for a user to send in an older powerbook or ibook and hear back that
    parts are not available, how about a new macbook instead, no extra
    charge.
    what proprietary formats are those?
    only a few?
    surprising as it may seem, it's possible to program a mac.

    in fact, the development tools are completely free and ship with every
    mac. it even uses gcc.
     
    Guest, Jan 4, 2010
    #21
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  2. The Henchman

    MikeWhy Guest

    Migrating the operating system is typically a one way trip. It's not like
    trying on a pair of shoes. Once you're there, you're stuck, and then counted
    among those who _are_ using it, against their wishes or otherwise. Ergo,
    Vista's lack of popularity has less to do with the common person finding
    that it doesn't suit them, than rumor- and fear-mongering puppies spreading
    gossip, almost *ALWAYS* without firsthand knowledge of that which they
    speak. Does any part of this sound the least bit familiar to anyone here?
    One would think the legions of dissatisfied Vista users would have ditched
    it like a used prophylactic once Windows 7 came along. Since you're not
    already on Windows 7, we can take it for fact that you have no meaningful
    firsthand knowledge of Vista.
     
    MikeWhy, Jan 5, 2010
    #22
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  3. That's why anyone with more than a half handful of computers and a
    modicum of sense uses test environments to test out these things.
    (And many intelligent people manage even with just one or two
    computers.) And having tested it, people who depend on their
    computers professionally mostly stayed way off Vista.
    .... unless you know what a backup (or an image, if you're using
    Windows computers as clients, as most people in business do)
    is for. You *do* know what a backup is, don't you?
    And now explain why Vista --- and not XP nor 7 --- is regarded
    so badly. If your claim was right, then XP and 7 would have/have
    had the same people who are using it against their wishes, the
    same lack of popularity and the same rumor- an fear-mongering
    puppies spreading gossip. Unfortunately for your argument,
    this is not so. Hence your argument, as stated, is refuted.

    Thank you for proving that there is indeed more to 'Vista is
    bad'.
    They did not? Who is still running Vista? Hands up, please.
    Since you are not already on heroin, we can take it for a fact
    that you have no meaningful firsthand knowledge of cocaine?

    How about having experience with Vista and not waiting for 7 but
    changing to MacOS or BSD or Linux? None of these require the use
    of 7, in fact, in all of these cases using 7 would be almost as
    foolish as going back to Vista.

    Or how about having exposure to XP, Vista now 7 and all the
    problems especially Vista brought from work, but not using Windows
    at home --- exactly because one knows it?

    I'm going to take your inate 'not already on 7' claim as proof that
    you have no exposure, meaningful or not, to any other operating
    system, which means you have no meter stick to measure Windows by
    except itself. You are thus incapable of seeing or understanding
    it's inbuild, unnecessary limitations and quirks and thus in no
    position to argue about the merits of Windows above a level of
    which type of sawdust tastes better with turpentine in a discussion
    of ice cream with sauce.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 6, 2010
    #23
  4. For MacOS.
    They get the complete source code from Apple?
    And the rights to use, study, change, pass on the original or
    changed source code?
    And how does that relate to the software in question?
    Any format that isn't an open format.
    As often enough discussed here, software for tagging and finding
    images should save the data to IPCT (open format) and not (just)
    to it's own database (proprietary format) where it's hard (or
    even impossible) to export and re-import into another
    application.

    If you actually stop and think about it, you'll find many
    more examples from all walks of life.
    Only a few. When I don't have the inclination or time (when the
    bug doesn't need immediate attention and something else does,
    for example), when the code is too complicated to understand
    sufficiently regarding to the problem or the problem is deep or,
    obviously in all cases where there's no source code ...

    How many bugs have you found and fixed in other people's
    code?
    If your neighbour needs an umbrella or a chainsaw or a certain
    book or tool and you have one, you can lend it ... except for
    e.g. Digital Restriction Managed books or proprietary software
    tools (where you don't even own the copy of the tool, but just
    a licence that forbids you sometimes to even publish benchmarks,
    never mind lending it to your neighbour.

    Baen Books has found, for example, that restriction free access to
    (at least some) books boosts the overall revenue (assuming the
    books are good to read) --- see their free library.

    And of course free and open source software does allow you to
    give your neighbour any of their tools.

    Huh!
    It's not surprising. After all, one can program a Windows
    computer.
    Huh?

    You write that as if it was something special. 'And the air
    in this nice hotel is completely free to breathe, no exta fee.
    You may even trap as much in your bags and take home as you
    can carry.'

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 6, 2010
    #24
  5. The Henchman

    MikeWhy Guest

    The chances are very good you were still in diapers when I started doing
    this.
    Why that's just wonderful, a pugilist looking for an OS war. Go ahead, I'll
    give you one if you can say something new and refreshing. Tell us something
    you know that no one else knows.
     
    MikeWhy, Jan 6, 2010
    #25
  6. The Henchman

    Guest Guest

    and how exactly is freedom a problem for mac os?
    quite a bit of os x is open source, however, most people don't care
    about the source code to their operating system. they're more
    interested in actually *doing something* with their computer.
    sure. read the license agreements for specifics.
    you said you had to beg for repairs.
    i'm aware of the definition. what proprietary formats does apple force
    on its users?
    that's not part of the operating system.
    and which examples are part of mac os x?

    a very feeble attempt at evading the question. try answering it next
    time.
    so you want the source but rarely do anything with it. got it.
    quite a few. what does that have to do with what apple does?
    apple is in the umbrella and chainsaw business now? what does that have
    to do with apple and mac os x?
    os x does not include any drm'ed ebooks, so that's also irrelevant and
    as i noted, the software development tools that come with os x include
    gcc, gdb, etc.
    wonderful. what does that have to do with apple?
    my neighbor would not know what open source *means* let alone what to
    do with it.
    huh indeed. another feeble attempt at diversion.
    based on what i've seen, it doesn't take much, and many of them have no
    idea what they're doing.
    don't you use gcc on your linux box?

    ironic how when linux uses a particular bit of software, it's a plus,
    but when apple uses the *same thing* it's not.
     
    Guest, Jan 6, 2010
    #26
  7. That, and *lots* of study, might qualify you as an early computer
    historian.

    In a field where the halftime of knowledge is 3 years, what does
    a decade of experiences gain you, once it's over a quarter or
    half a century ago? Maybe you can program in Plankalkül and
    run a Z3 --- so what? If I want or need to do that, I'll pick
    it up in short order.

    I see you found no explanation why Vista should be singled
    out. I also see you with your experience when I was still in
    diapers cannot even get your newsreader not to wrap quoted
    material, or at least reformat it properly. This speaks
    volumes.

    [snip. How someone with alleged decades of experience doesn't
    know how to trim posts is beyond me.]
    If I want one, I go to *.advocacy.
    You seem to want one, given that you claimed that since I wasn't
    on 7 already, I must have no (meaningful) experience with Vista
    .... as if there was nothing BUT windows.

    News flash for you: I started computing before there was a Windows
    1 even in planning (which isn't a particularly uncommon claim).
    Were you still in diapers then, or can't (in which case you're
    excused) or won't you remember there being other systems?
    I was waiting for you to say something new and refreshing on
    how just Visa did get a bad rep. Unfortunately, you didn't.
    I dreamed wierd stuff last night, and haven't told a soul yet,
    so only I know/knew it.

    With regards to computers? I doubt there's much relevant stuff
    (except passwords and the like) that is known to only one person,
    but feel free to divulge *your* completely unique knowledge.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 6, 2010
    #27
  8. The Henchman

    Ray Fischer Guest

    If you want to write code in order to use your computer, great for
    you. I write code for a living and when I get home I want to use the
    computer and not write code.
     
    Ray Fischer, Jan 7, 2010
    #28
  9.  
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 7, 2010
    #29
  10. The Henchman

    Guest Guest

    not all, but quite a bit is open source.
    you have a funny way of not being able to read.
    xml that's easily used.
    this is about macs, not ipods and iphones.

    do you have the source code to the firmware in your cellphone? even
    android is not completely open source. how about your microwave oven?
    people do own their hardware and are not prevented from doing whatever
    they want with it.
    thank you for agreeing that apple doesn't lock anyone down.
    most of which don't matter to the vast majority of users.
    i can extend os x without any need for its source.
    it already is
    all of the features are there and memory is cheap.
    there's no need for the operating system itself to be open source to
    find sample code from which to learn, and as i mentioned, a lot of os x
    *is* open source, including the kernel.
    i'm just pointing out that macs use the very same compiler you use on
    your linux box. if it's good enough for linux users, then it's good
    enough for mac users :)
    it's a given with macs too, unfortunately. there are much better
    compilers but gcc is what became the defacto standard everywhere.
     
    Guest, Jan 8, 2010
    #30
  11. And here you have the answer to your question.
    How much of that open source is parts Apple developed, improved,
    ported or helped to debug?
    I read you say "No, you cannot get the complete source code for
    your Mac OS, but I will not admit it openly" in politicanese.
    This is about "proprietary formats [...] APPLE force on its
    users". You set the conditions, don't change them all the time.
    What does Apple and/or OS X have to do with cellphones, android,
    and microwave ovens? That's really rich from a guy comlaining
    that iPod and iPhone aren't macs when he's talking about Apple.

    But how about my MP3-player, to at least stay in the right
    direction? Yes, I have the complete source code of the firmware
    that runs my player.
    Sure, and being in prison does not prevent you from doing whatever
    you want, you just have to imagine it ... same as imagining
    getting a benign C=64 emulator on the iPhone.
    Thank you for proving that while I can read your evasions, you
    lie blatantly. Who complained above that the newer iPods from
    Apple(!) and the iPhone fom Apple(!) aren't Macs, fully knowing
    that they are locked down? If it was otherwise, you'd have
    answered that they are open ...
    You don't matter to the vast majority of the people, therefore
    your needs may/should/must be ignored? That's all the logic
    you can offer? Go hold your head into a microwave, then, nobody
    cares ... by your logic.
    Then how come the source code is the programmer's choice for
    doing things when you don't need it?

    And how do you think you can extend it when "all the features are
    [already] there"?
    So what? Lots of people tune their cars, although they are
    already tuned.
    So Mac OS X will never ever add a new feature?
    I guess you're a liar. You can extend OS X, which means there
    are features missing.

    Do you even notice when you claim two mutually exclusive things?
    Sure, what's a couple Exabye of RAM between friends? What,
    your computer doesn't have even 100 Gigabyte? And your phone?
    And your microwave?
    No, you could read the lion book to understand how to code an OS.
    Or you could look to licenses that don't give you all freedoms,
    just enough to look at the code. Minix comes to mind.
    Guess Apple didn't write it and it would have cost them too much
    to close it.
    Can't you read? I'm not saying it's too good or too bad for
    Mac users. I'm saying I'm not acting like a child finding
    out the first time that snow is cold over GCC being included
    with Linux.
    GCC isn't perfect. But you can freely buy whatever better compiler
    you want and run it on your Mac. Unless your license with Apple
    forbids it, of course. You can even recompile your and all your
    closed source programs OS with that super-compiler of yours',
    then, can't you?

    And in an open market (i.e. not one where a microsoft gets a slap
    on the hand for major crimes and has strangulating contracts with
    most computer retailers and all the force of an evil monopoly
    empire) you'll find that the overall 'best' solution --- the one
    that is adopted --- isn't the one that's just technically good,
    but restrictive regarding licenses or just too hard to use in
    comparison. Guess excellence not always wins you friends if
    you are obnoxious.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 8, 2010
    #31
  12. The Henchman

    Guest Guest

    quite a bit actually, including the kernel, webkit and grand central.
    in fact, webkit is used by nokia, palm and google. adobe is considering
    using grand central.


    what proprietary formats does apple force? you mentioned itunes, i
    pointed out that it's xml, not proprietary at all. keep trying.

    ipods and iphones play standard audio and video files and can display
    standard photos, nothing proprietary there either. there's no source
    with them, but that's how virtually all embedded devices are.
    you can keep coming up with these ridiculous comments, but exactly what
    does apple prevent someone from doing? specifics please.
    ask them. maybe like yourself, they're unfamiliar with how a mac
    actually works.
    if the features of your system are all there, you don't actually need
    the source code, do you? there's nothing to extend.
    and lots of people tweak their macs, without having any source code.
    big deal.
    guess again. in fact, it was closed early on, but that was when quite a
    bit of it was constantly changing.
    apple doesn't forbid anyone from running anything on a mac. where do
    people come up with this nonsense?
    i prefer to actually *do* something with my apps than compile them.
    many have a plugin architecture so they can be extended without needing
    source code to the apps, such as photoshop.

    speaking of which, despite the gimp being open source, it's still far
    slower than that closed source photoshop. despite it being open source,
    nobody has figured out how to make it fast.
     
    Guest, Jan 9, 2010
    #32
  13. So Apple is trying in some ways to have their cake (open source ---
    for example, they didn't have to write the kernel, saving several
    million man hours, just work on it a bit --- and get some/many/a
    lot of improvements and bugfixes "for free") and eat it, too
    (still having proprietary code).

    Of course it is possible Apple is hogtied by proprietary
    licenses itself in regards to the closed parts.
    And the kernel is used by Apple --- in just the same way.

    Is the format how iPhones and iPods store data on their
    devices open, just for example?
    And Internet Explorer 'plays' standard HTML webpages and
    images and Javascript, too --- so we can rank the iPod and
    the iPhone to be as open as the IE.

    Not that the IE doesn't have proprietary 'extensions' of
    their own...
    What word of "C=64 emulator" and "iPhone" was too high for you?
    If you continue to not read what I write and use your brain
    during reading, don't bother answering any more.
    Of course, the Mac's not programmed by software. That's it! Right?
    Yep, you're a liar, you cannot "extend os x without any need for
    its source" since you cannot extend it at all: "there's
    nothing to extend".
    With cars, you open the hood and see the internals. With software,
    you open the sourcecode in your editor to see the internals.
    Doesn't work with welded shut hoods or no sourcecode.

    That's the big deal.
    Ah, what kernel does OS X run again? You seem to mix that
    one up with previous versions of Macs ...
    Just pointing out that licenses can have arbitrary terms,and
    I don't know which license *you* have.
    So you cannot recompile them, thus the grapes are too sour for you.
    Apparently
    And of course a plugin can always do everything. How many
    plugins to photoshop have you published under your name?
    Gimp is much faster than photoshop in most cases. The exception
    might be the very few platforms photoshop actually runs on.
    So if you are a speed junky, feel free.
    Noone has figured out how to make photoshop use anything
    better than bicubic interpolation. For GIMP, the solution is
    easy: just spend the $$$$ you save on not buying photoshop
    and dozens of expensive plug-ins on a faster machine. For
    the quality loss in photoshop with every rotate, there's no
    solution, except to use a different program.

    And I don't hear many people worry over the speed of GIMP, so
    it's not like it is a huge problem after all ...

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 10, 2010
    #33
  14. The Henchman

    Guest Guest

    where do you get the idea they didn't write the kernel? the person who
    created mach worked for apple.
    speculation.

    the closed source parts are their own, notably carbon and cocoa.
    of course it is. it's whatever format it was before it was copied to
    the device.

    you don't really think itunes transcodes every single song or video on
    the fly to some secret proprietary format do you?
    apple does not in any way prevent anyone from writing a c64 emulator or
    anything else for that matter. anyone can do exactly that and even
    distribute the source code for it too.

    what apple does not allow is *selling* such an app in apple's apps
    store. that's no different than any other store deciding what they sell
    or not sell. but of course, it's apple so it must be wrong, even though
    everyone else does exactly the same thing.

    go write a c64 emulator for whatever platform you prefer and see if
    best buy or walmart will sell it.
    so you can see the source code for the onboard computers just by
    lifting the hood??

    back in the day, cars could be tweaked with a screwdriver. today, you
    need all sorts of equipment to figure out what's in the ecu rom, which
    if you replace will void the warranty. and if you do modify the car at
    all, the obd system will probably flag the mod and you'll fail an
    emissions check, making the vehicle not legal to be driven. in some
    states, *any* mod, even if a replacement part causes the car to produce
    less emissions, will fail the visual check (and they look).

    so although the hood is not 'welded shut' you can't really do anything
    beyond just 'seeing' the internals. it's for all intents, closed
    source.
    os x is not welded shut, no matter how many times you claim otherwise.
    darwin and i'm not mixing anything up. the previous version was called
    nukernel and that was not open source and it's now dead.
    bullshit. last time i benchmarked the gimp (a year or so ago), it was
    an order of magnitude slower than photoshop on the same hardware.
    if by very few you mean the 95% of computers which are running mac or
    windows.
    i don't hear many people worry over not having the source code to
    photoshop.
     
    Guest, Jan 10, 2010
    #34
  15. Wolfie-

    It occurred to me that you'd do quite well in mac.advocacy- where anti
    Maccies love to spread the love.....
     
    John McWilliams, Jan 10, 2010
    #35
  16.  
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Jan 12, 2010
    #36
  17. The Henchman

    Guest Guest

    it's called xnu but it's mach inside.
    it's creator, avie tevanian, worked for apple. thankfully, he's gone.
    so you admit it has mach. progress. apple bought next, thus their work
    is now apple. thanks for proving my point.
     
    Guest, Jan 13, 2010
    #37
  18. The Henchman

    Ray Fischer Guest

     
    Ray Fischer, Jan 13, 2010
    #38
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