What does type-1 and type-2 mean?

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Brian, Jan 4, 2004.

  1. Brian

    Brian Guest

    I was reading about some of the features of WinDV.
    The text read "capturing from DV device to AVI files (both type-1 and
    type-2 supported) and recording vice versa"

    What does type-1 and type-2 mean?

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 4, 2004
    #1
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  2. Brian

    Larry Guest

    Brian,
    Thanks for advice on how to put video on existing disc in post before
    this one. I will try advice. I am using ulead video studio 7 and I am
    new to all of this. Anyway, in regards to this question, I posted the
    exact same question on other web sites with no real responses. Seems
    like people know little about this, including me. Try
    http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/desinit/dvavi.htm#type1 . It did not
    help me in deciding which way to capture. Let me know if info helps. I
    am ready to capture, but undecided as to which type to use. Good luck.
     
    Larry, Jan 4, 2004
    #2
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  3. Brian

    Chris Guest

    Hi

    well I can tell you right now that if you are thinking of capturing
    the avi to convert it into a mpeg2 stream ( For DVD compatibility
    playback ), you need to capture it in type 1 format. - or vice versa,
    I forget now.. the reason is that most mpeg2 compressors does not
    recognize the type made by microsoft and the audio/video goes out of
    sync. It happened to me, and I couldnt understand why. On 4 Jan 2004
     
    Chris, Jan 4, 2004
    #3
  4. Brian

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    Go to <http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-editing.html> and read the section
    entitled "What are Type 1 and Type 2 AVI files (and why should I care)?".

    Type 1 DV use the DirectShow interface while Type 2 DV use the old and
    nearly deprecated Video For Windows interface. Type 1 DV is superior in
    nearly everyway and you should use it whenever possible. Whenever possible
    means whenever you DON'T have to use an application that only understands
    the old Type 2 DV format. As time goes on, less and less apps DON'T
    support it. The major ap used in 2004 that doesn't support it is
    VirtualDUB.
     
    Nomen Nescio, Jan 4, 2004
    #4
  5. Brian

    Markus Zingg Guest

    I was reading about some of the features of WinDV.
    First off, I don't know WinDV so I can't comment on this one. However,
    the difference between type 1 and type 2 avi is:

    Type 1 DV avis actually contain the data mostly as it came in from the
    camcorder just lightly wrapped into the avi file format. With DV avi,
    audio is interleaved into each video frame. That's one of the main
    reasons why DV avi is usually quite resistant to a/v synchronisation
    issues.

    Type 2 DV avis also contain the original data stream as sent from the
    camcorder. However, the capture application - during the capture
    process - extracts the audio part out of the frames and a second
    dedicated audio data stream is stored within the avi file. If this is
    done propperly this does not form a problem.

    The advantage of type 1 avi's is that they obviousely need less space
    on the HD and need less processing power during capture. The
    disadvantage fo type1 avi's is that they are not compatible with
    standard avi's. Standard avis always expect a dedicated aditional
    audio datastream and in order to avoid problems. M$ created the avi
    type 1 specification so as this kind of files get a special header
    which avoids that standard software can operate on them. A severe
    disadvantage of type 1 avi's is that the editing process is a lot more
    complicated because audio must be constantly written into the video
    frames to the propper places and those who know the DV format in
    detail will agree that this is a night mare. The DV format was choosen
    with robustness with regard to the camcorder hardware (video heads &
    tape) in mind. From a software only point of view it apears to be
    braindead but it's of course not.

    The advantage of type 2 avi's is that they can be processed with any
    video editing/processing software povided a working DV decompression
    filter or codec (depending no the technology used by said software) is
    installed in the system. The disadvantage with type 2 avi's is that
    they are slightly bigger (due to the doubled audio data). Editing is -
    as oposed to type 1 - not more difficult that with any other avi
    format. The original audio data within the video frames just remains
    there unchanged, the aditional audio stream contains the "real" audio
    data. This showes another disadvantage of type 2 in that the audio
    data - during print back to tape - must be injected into the video
    frames before they are transmitted to the camcorder.

    You can see that both formats have their pros and cons. If you have
    compatibility / interoperatibility in mind, type 2 is the way to go.
    If all the software you intend to use supports type 1 then there is
    nothing wrong with using type 1. Btw, there is an easy trick to
    remember which is which. Type 1 means 1 audio stream (the original
    one) type 2 means two audio streams (the original one and the copy).

    HTH

    Markus
     
    Markus Zingg, Jan 4, 2004
    #5
  6. Brian

    Samuel Paik Guest

    AVI files have one video stream and zero or more audio streams.
    DV streams have the audio and video interleaved together.

    In a type 1 DV AVI file, the DV stream is placed in the AVI video stream.
    In a type 2 DV AVI file, the DV stream is placed in the AVI video stream
    and the audio from the DV stream is duplicated into an AVI audio stream.

    Type 2 DV AVI files have the audio twice. Why is this useful? Some
    AVI video editors don't know about the audio in the DV stream, so
    won't be able to see the audio in a type 1 DV AVI file.

    Sam
     
    Samuel Paik, Jan 4, 2004
    #6
  7. Brian

    Erik Schuit Guest

    [This followup was posted to rec.video.desktop and a copy was sent to the
    cited author.]

    Google type 1 avi and find:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9
    _c/directx/htm/type1vstype2dvfiles.asp

    Regards, Erik
     
    Erik Schuit, Jan 4, 2004
    #7
  8. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Thanks Markus and others for your help with my question.

    I was to convert VHS to DVD that I can play on a desktop DVD player.
    From what I understand by reading the replies I should use type-2 as
    it is more compitable, so there is more chance of being able to play
    the DVD on my desktop DVD player.

    Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 5, 2004
    #8
  9. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Your welcome Larry.
    I've had some good relies to my question, so you should also know the
    answer by reading the replies in this newsgroup..

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 5, 2004
    #9
  10. Brian

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    DVD-Video players do not AFAIK play DV25, nor would you want them to at
    ~13GB/hr.

    Type-2 is more compatible as more applications, mostly older ones, support
    it than Type-1. However, with the exception of VirtualDUB & TMPGEnc, all
    the modern applications I've used (CCE, Sony's Vegas, MainConcept's MPEG
    encoder, Canopus' ProCoder, etc.) support Type-1. AVISynth is a easy way
    around the problem, and there are free Type-1 -> Type-2 DV converters.

    The concern about using Type-1 AVI's is more of a 1999 problem than a 2004
    problem.
     
    Nomen Nescio, Jan 5, 2004
    #10
  11. Brian

    Markus Zingg Guest

    Thanks Markus and others for your help with my question.
    The captured format does not play a direct rule when it comes to
    playing on a settop DVD player. In order to create a DVD you need to
    encode to MPEG and that's where the isue may kickes back in. That
    said, if the MPEG encodeing software can't operate on type 1 DV
    videos, you need to capture with type 2. If it can then it does not
    matter.

    As the other poster pointed out, there are no DVD players known to me
    which can play DV video directly. The problem with this aproach would
    be that a DVD can only hold ~3.6GB of data. DV video however runs at
    ~3.5MB/sec. as a result only a fairly short amount of DV video would
    fit directly onto a DVD. That's why a more powerfull compression is
    used there (MPEG-2) which is having a much lower datarate.


    Markus
     
    Markus Zingg, Jan 5, 2004
    #11
  12. Brian

    Jerry Jones Guest

    Jerry Jones, Jan 5, 2004
    #12
  13. Very incorrect. At least, if you want to edit your video and audio.
    From doom9:

    "Q1: What's the difference between DV type-1 and DV type-2?

    A1: AVI files can contain different video and audio streams. The
    native interleaved DV data produced by camcorders is
    stored in a type-1 AVI file with stream type ivas.
    If the native data is split into separate audio (auds) and
    video (vids) streams, then we have a type-2 AVI. In this case
    the vids stream still contains the audio interleaved, thus the
    filesize is a little bigger.

    Video-for-Windows (VfW) applications like VirtualDub don't work
    with type-1 files. You can either convert to type-2 or use
    AviSynth and its DirectShowSource command to open the video. In
    the latter case process the audio separately."

    IOW, type-1 is just one stream containing both the video
    and audio. type-2 are two streams (interleaved). The main
    advantage is that you can separate them easily, in case you
    want to process them separately.

    Wilbert
     
    Wilbert Dijkhof, Jan 5, 2004
    #13
  14. Brian

    Jay Chan Guest

    As the other poster pointed out, there are no DVD players known to me
    I am interested to learn more about the size required for storing
    video in DV format. A DV video takes around 3.5 MB/sec, and a regular
    DVD disk only hold 2GB. Does this mean that I can only fit 10 minutes
    of video in DV in one DVD disk in average? Does this also mean that I
    need 6+ GB to store 30 minutes of video in DV? Is my calculation
    correct?

    This will mean that I need to break the video clips in 10-minutes
    sections in order to archive the video in DVD disks in DV format (if I
    don't want to compress the video in any way). Is this how people
    archive their valuable videos (such as wedding video and
    baby-first-step video)? I am wondering...

    Thanks for any information in advance.

    Jay Chan
     
    Jay Chan, Jan 5, 2004
    #14
  15. Brian

    Markus Zingg Guest

    Yes - well, a DVD may holds up to ~3.6 GB per side and as a result the
    segments can be bigger.
    Common sense so far used to be that archiving DV video is best done on
    DV tapes. However, it's IMHO an open problem which remains to be
    solved considering the fact that DV tapes are not a good long term
    solution. DVD as a storeage medium is a possible solution but it IMHO
    remains questionable how much sense it makes considering the (space)
    limitation. I think future technologies will be the answer. There is a
    BIG demand for something like this cause in princip the same problem
    aplies to the IT situation in general where we see 120+GB harddrives
    but no cheap backup medium that is in a compareable space range.

    Some people even go as far to simply use removeable harddrives (USB
    2.0 comes to mind) as a backup medium.

    So, storing native DV on DVD datadiscs may makes sense for you but is
    IMHO not a general solution to the problem.

    Markus
     
    Markus Zingg, Jan 5, 2004
    #15
  16. Brian

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    The DV25 total information stream is about 29Mb/s, or around 3.6MB/s, so
    you are right on the money here.
    No. A normal DVD-R holds 4.38GB.
    I think that comes out to about 21.8 minutes per 4.38GB DVD-R,
    approximately.
    Yah. DV25 ends up taking somewhere around 13GB/hr.
    Close enough for government work.
    Most people I know encode the stuff to DVD-Video and keep the original
    format on mini-DV tape.

    Hopefully, in a few years, before that mini-DV tape goes bad, BluRay DVD
    recorders (~23GB) will be affordable enough that that will end up being a
    good medium to archive DV to.

    I've just gone thru the point where I've transfered most of my important
    archival data from CD-R to DVD-R. And I anticipate I'll be making moves
    like that every few years as the archival medium of choice changes with
    time.
     
    Nomen Nescio, Jan 5, 2004
    #16
  17. Brian

    Jerry Jones Guest

    DV Type-1 is fully editable.

    Many mainstream NLEs on the market support DV Type-1.

    Contrary to your claim, Microsoft's information here...

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/archive/d...x81_c/directx_cpp/htm/type1vstype2dvfiles.asp

    ....is correct.

    "For video capture, where maximum throughput is crucial, it is better
    to save the data as type-1."

    "This is because type-2 files carry redundant data: the video stream
    still contains audio data, which is hidden by labeling the stream as
    video."

    "Also, writing a type-2 file requires some additional processor time
    to split the interleaved stream."

    Jerry Jones
    http://www.jonesgroup.net
     
    Jerry Jones, Jan 5, 2004
    #17
  18. Brian

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    Jerry's right. It's **always** better to use Type-1 DV as long as your
    applications support it. Type-1 DV is slightly smaller and is still highly
    editable in the year 2003-4.
    What is your point here?? Just because Type-1 AVI files don't work
    natively with VirtualDUB doesn't mean they're not highly editable -- it
    just means they aren't editable with VirtualDUB. VFW (Type-2 DV) is like
    Windows 98 -- it's the past -- old technology that should be put out to
    pasture. WDM (Type-1 DV) is the present. In 2000, DOOM9's comments had a
    lot of merit; in 2004, it doesn't.

    Sony's Vegas v4.0, Adobe Premiere, Ulead's Media Studio, etc. all work just
    fine with Type-1 DV files. I edit audio/video from Type-1 DV files daily.
    And those programs can easily seperate the streams in Type-1 DV files. I
    do it all the time.
     
    Nomen Nescio, Jan 6, 2004
    #18
  19. Brian

    Jay Chan Guest

    Yes - well, a DVD may holds up to ~3.6 GB per side and as a result the
    Thanks for the correction. This mean I can break the video clip to
    20-minute segments instead of 10-minute segments. Great! Most of my
    video clip are less than 20-minutes anyway.
    You are exactly right. Storing DV video in DVD-R quite likely will
    work for me. As you said, this may not work for many other people.
    Yes, I started using a removable hard disk to backup my system disk
    when I realized that my tape backup drive could not backup the large
    hard disk any more.

    Thanks for the information.

    Jay Chan
     
    Jay Chan, Jan 6, 2004
    #19
  20. Brian

    Jay Chan Guest

    No. A normal DVD-R holds 4.38GB.
    Good to know that. Thanks.
    I see. But I have a feeling that this method only works if the mini-DV
    tapes don't go bad. Otherwise, the original will be gone.
    Will the video resolution go way up and eat up all the space in BluRay
    DVD at that time? I am just wondering...

    Jay Chan
     
    Jay Chan, Jan 6, 2004
    #20
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