What's your favorite all-purpose lens?

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by dickr2, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. dickr2

    Robert Coe Guest

    : On 12/5/2010 5:54 PM K W Hart spake thus:
    :
    : > What do you do with those digital images after shooting? Do you save them on
    : > your home computer's hard drive? Ever had a hard drive fail- it ain't fun.
    : > Or maybe you burn them onto a CD or DVD? Remember 8" floppies- sure wish I
    : > could find a drive to read those disks.
    :
    : You just might be able to find them.
    :
    : I was unable to locate any with a quick search; however, I'd be
    : surprised if they weren't available on eBay or from some other vendor.
    :
    : And I don't write this out of some kind of irony or retro snarkiness. I
    : used to work for two different companies that at one time sold 8"
    : diskette systems for PCs--lots of them. The amazing thing was how late
    : in the game these old beasts were still available. Despite the
    : conventional wisdom in the computer industry in the early 1990s that
    : 8-inch floppies were deader than a doornail, they were still available
    : and being used long past then.
    :
    : I also remember how nearly indestructible those suckers were. At one
    : place I worked, we needed to create a damaged disk to test our drive
    : systems's error handling. Sounds easy, right? Well, we took one, put it
    : on the carpet and rolled and office chair over it a bunch of times.
    : Nope, still completely readable. It finally took some serious mutilation
    : to get an unreadable disk. Those things were like Rasputin.
    :
    : Now if only there was a gigabyte 8" floppy disk ...

    Well, when you find those floppies, good luck trying to connect them to a
    modern PC. I've been a computer programmer since 1958, and I don't think I
    ever saw an 8" floppy except on DEC minicomputers.

    But that's hardly the point. There are many ways to protect your digital
    photographs from hard-drive failures without using CDs, DVDs, or 8" floppies.
    To cite the possibility of a drive failure as a reason to eschew digital
    photography is ridiculous (although possibly not as ridiculous as carrying
    thirty camera bodies on a trip).

    I'd never disparage anyone for using film if that's what he likes to do. But I
    can sure say that I've never had the slightest temptation to revert to film
    myself. And like it or hate it, the percentage of photographers using film
    keeps going down.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Dec 6, 2010
    #21
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  2. We (Flagstaff Engineering, and the next company I worked for) sold
    complete systems for PCs, consisting of drive(s), an adapter card (ISA)
    and software. In addition to 8" diskette drives, also sold bunches of
    5-1/4" of different types. Sold tons of 'em. (The companies also sold
    9-track tape drives for PCs.)

    One of the industries that used 8" disks right up to the end,
    interestingly, was the video editing biz, which apparently had become
    dependent on DEC hardware that used 8" for storage. They were actually
    designing *new* editing systems as late as 1992 with 8" drives built in.

    I could probably locate one today if hard pressed to do so.


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    And these IP addresses can be used:

    http://213.251.145.96/
    http://88.80.13.160/
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 6, 2010
    #22
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  3. Bullshit. Can't be done.

    Man, you *are* gullible.


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    These sites are still up as of 12/3/10:

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    http://wikileaks.fi
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    And these IP addresses can be used:

    http://213.251.145.96/
    http://88.80.13.160/
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 6, 2010
    #23
  4. Wait 38 years: I reckon my D700 will still work. I might not be using it
    as my first preference, we'll see. That *is* a fairly odd definition of "very
    fine", IMO. I really love my F3, too, and it'll probably still going
    reasonably by then too (assuming availability of film). I wouldn't call it
    the D700's superior in any respect, though.
    Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I reckon that my D700 shots tend to be higher
    quality (pick a metric) than my F3 ones, using the same lenses.
    Well, you have something of an advantage there, but you must walk with a caddy!
    My F3 has a steady diet of TriX-400 at the moment, which is very flexible, with
    fast lenses.
    I might start doing that too. I take too long to finish a roll of 36 when
    I'm not on an expedition or project of some sort. I forget what was on there
    at the beginning.
    RAID array on-line and automated schedule of full and incremental backups
    to another disk. Hard drives fail so often that one *has* to operate this
    way. Backups to off-site machines or cloud storage will probably wind up
    being useful, but I'm not yet convinced of the terms of service of the
    cloud servers, and network bandwidth is still too limited and expensive
    for that to be the whole answer, just yet. IMO.
    If you were using 8" floppies, you would (if you'd paid attention to NASA's
    warehouses of write-only magtape) have had a program of copying their
    contents to new media forms as it became available. These days that means
    rolling over to new generations of rotating storage every couple of years.
    That's true as long as the physical entities hold up. You have no redundancy
    to protect against disaster. Colour processes have deteriorated seriously
    in that time frame.
    Everyone has their own style. That's not really a characteristic of the
    camera mechanism. Motor-drive film cameras used to be used just as rapid-
    fire, in certain circumstances (sport and fashion, for example.)
    Me too. Apart from anything, I find taking photos to be much more
    enjoyable than editing them.
    Film is very fine. I like the discipline of shooting and the process
    of developing, and the quality of the results. Digital is very fine
    too, now, though.

    Cheers,
     
    Andrew Reilly, Dec 6, 2010
    #24
  5. dickr2

    Walter Banks Guest

    K W Hart wrote:

    If you still need to read an 8" floppy contact me.

    I have had hard drives fail but it has been a quarter century
    since I have lost data when a hard drive failed. Kinda like
    unspooling a film in a dark room with the light on. Loss of
    data doesn't need to happen.

    Spend a weekend with a digital camera and see what you can do with
    it that isn't possible with a film body. Think of it as not replacing
    film but as a different way to take images with possibilities that
    were unheard of in a film only era.

    w..
     
    Walter Banks, Dec 6, 2010
    #25
  6. dickr2

    Robert Coe Guest

    : K W Hart wrote:
    : > : >> K W Hart wrote:
    : >>> : >>
    : >>> As for multiple bodies, I do that to avoid reloading film. When you
    : >>> have nearly 400 camera bodies, all Canon FX's, you don't need to
    : >>> reload very often.
    : >>>
    : >>> Ken Hart
    : >>
    : >> Ye Gads.....400 bodies? For the price of all those bodies, you could
    : >> buy a very fine digital camera, and never have to load another roll
    : >> of film as long as you live. Also, you can dial up whatever ISO you
    : >> want from photo to photo and get nearly the same quality you can get
    : >> out of film of the equavilent ISO. With film, you are stuck with
    : >> whatever ISO you have for 36 frames.
    : >
    : > (a) There is no such thing as a "very fine digital camera". Show me a
    : > digital camera that's been used for over 40 years and still works.
    : > (b) You said it yourself: "_nearly_ the same quality you can get out
    : > of film". "Nearly" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
    : > (c) Actually, I could have several ASA (ISO) speeds loaded at the
    : > same time- it's just a matter of selecting the camera body with the
    : > film I want to shoot.
    : > (d) Generally I shoot 24 exposure rolls, but that's minor.
    : >
    : > What do you do with those digital images after shooting? Do you save
    : > them on your home computer's hard drive? Ever had a hard drive fail-
    : > it ain't fun. Or maybe you burn them onto a CD or DVD? Remember 8"
    : > floppies- sure wish I could find a drive to read those disks.
    : > Someday, the same problem will exist for CD and DVD. On the other
    : > hand, those negs I shot 30+ years ago can still be printed in my
    : > darkroom, along with the couple of glass plate negs I have that are
    : > over a hundred years old.
    : > And how about printing those photos? I've had film printed by a
    : > scanning system, such as that found in your typical one-hour
    : > processor. I've printed the same negs optically. The comparison is
    : > remarkable. What about the life of the finished photos? Kodak's
    : > Endura paper has a rated life of 200 years.
    : > Then there's shooting style. I've worked with digital shooters, and
    : > they tend to 'machine gun'. The theory seems to be that if you take
    : > enough photos, maybe one or two will be keepers. Personnally I'd
    : > prefer to think a bit about what I'm photographing to make sure that
    : > more of my photos are good.
    : >
    : > Some would consider me a luddite for stubbornly staying with film
    : > technology. I prefer to think of myself as a traditionalist.
    :
    : I still have my film camera, and if I want a color slide, I will still use
    : it. But for general snapshots, (and I have always taken 10x as many of those
    : as I have carefully posed shots) I find the digital camera very attractive.
    : Especially since I can see the shot immediately after taking it via the
    : screen on the back of the camera. As to safe storage, I do two things. I
    : have two computers and I store the shots on both hard drives. I also back up
    : the main computer on another hard drive. But, I believe that on line storage
    : devices are the coming wave of the future, and even now I can hire a backup
    : service for not very much money that will allow me to store all my stuff on
    : their hard drives, so I don't really think long term storage will be a
    : problem.

    A few observations:

    Storing data on multiple computers is not a substitute for replicating it
    offsite. A couple of years ago there was a (digital) stock photographer in a
    suburb west of Boston who backed his files up but didn't take the media
    offsite - didn't even throw them in the trunk of his car. One night the
    building housing his studio burned to the ground, and he lost everything.

    Backup services seem attractive, because they handle the replication and
    offsite storage for you. But backup services have been known to go out of
    business and have their servers seized by the repo man before their customers
    could get their data off. So a backup service (or any other form of "cloud")
    had better not be the only place your files exist.

    Film is inherently more dangerous than digital, because the negative or
    original transparency constitutes a single point of failure. If you lose it or
    inadvertently damage it, or if the building burns down, you're SOL.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Dec 6, 2010
    #26
  7. dickr2

    Robert Coe Guest

    : >On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 18:54:33 -0500, wrote:
    : >>My "obvious" choice for a walk around lens is my Sigma 28-300, however, it
    : >>depends on where I'm going... what I don't like about this lens is the long
    : >>minimum focus. I want to replace it, hopefully with a VR lens.
    : >>
    : >>If I think I'll be needing more wide angle, being indoors for example, I'll
    : >>bring the Nikon 18-70, or the Nikon 18-55 VR which is better for natural light.
    : >
    : >You should look at the 16-85. I find the increased angle of 16
    : >compared to 18 is well worth having.
    :
    : I was just discussing with a friend the big diff between a 28 and an 18... I
    : haven't seen thru the 16 yet... The big problem with small sensor DSLRs is the
    : lack of real wide angles. My next cam may be a full frame, they keep coming down
    : in price anyway.

    They do? I can't say I've seen a lot of evidence of that. FF cameras keep
    getting better, I guess, but they and their lenses still look pretty damned
    expensive to me.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Dec 6, 2010
    #27
  8. dickr2

    Eric Stevens Guest

    My old Cromemcos had 8" floppies. I think towards the end Cromemco
    brought out machines with 5.25" drives.


    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 6, 2010
    #28
  9. Not only that, but it's fun to watch CDs get nuked!


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    David Nebenzahl, Dec 7, 2010
    #29
  10. "Phillipeans"? What's that?


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    David Nebenzahl, Dec 8, 2010
    #30
  11. Hey, that's a novel way to look at things: "Because one could, in
    theory, encode their JPEG (or even TIFF) photograph as a series of
    notches cut in rock, representing the binary encoding of the file,
    digital storage CAN TOO LAST FOREVER!". Proof positive.

    Only out of the mind of Bill Graham could such stuff come ...


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    http://wikileaks.fi
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    And these IP addresses work:

    http://213.251.145.96/
    http://88.80.13.160/
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 8, 2010
    #31
  12. So tell us, o brutal mallard: do you actually believe these claims (by
    Forensic Files, not by Bill Graham) that cut-up floppy disks could
    actually be pieced back together and read? (They claimed, I think,
    something like a 85% recovery of data.)

    I don't.

    (This is apart from the whole CD/floppy confusion thing, and Graham's
    reading comprehension problems.)


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    These sites are still up as of 12/6/10:

    http://wikileaks.de
    http://wikileaks.fi
    http://wikileaks.nl
    http://wikileaks.eu
    http://wikileaks.ch
    http://wikileaks.pl

    And these IP addresses work:

    http://213.251.145.96/
    http://88.80.13.160/
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 8, 2010
    #32
  13. Good advice.

    Heh; had a small dose of that a couple weeks ago. A couple years ago
    when I bought my current van (a beater used as a work vehicle), the guy
    who sold it told me that a production company was interested in using it
    in a TV show episode. Sure enough, they emailed me a few months later
    and arranged to borrow it overnight to shoot a scene; as I remember,
    they paid me something like $100, well worth the loan.

    They mailed me a DVD of the show about 6 months later, but I only got
    around to watching it recently, lacking a DVD player. Turned out to be
    one of those "true crime" shows made for cable, chronicling the life of
    a gangbanger and murderer who "got away with it" for a long time. The
    van was used in one scene, a bunch of people doing a drug deal at night,
    which inevitably goes bad resulting in another shooting. The scene,
    which actually occurred somewhere in the South, was shot near me in
    Alameda, CA.

    Fat chance that things really happened as depicted in that scene. It all
    has that heavy-duty Hollywood sheen of "reality", though, so people
    (particularly the credible sort) are sucked right into it.


    --
    How To Access Wikileaks

    These sites are still up as of 12/6/10:

    http://wikileaks.de
    http://wikileaks.fi
    http://wikileaks.nl
    http://wikileaks.eu
    http://wikileaks.ch
    http://wikileaks.pl

    And these IP addresses work:

    http://213.251.145.96/
    http://88.80.13.160/
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 8, 2010
    #33
  14. dickr2

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Nor can the Louvre with the Mona Lisa.

    Neither can Zawhi Hawass with the Great Pyramid of Cheops.

    In fact, most of the artifacts of the world do not lend themselves to
    a more or less infallible backup. :-(



    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 8, 2010
    #34
  15. dickr2

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Well, I do.

    I have been using computers since 1961 and know how the tecnology
    actually works.

    I have been involved in highly technical forensic investigations in a
    slightly casual manner since 1967 and 100% seriously since 1988 (until
    I retired last year). I know how many apparently insuperable problems
    of reconstructing evidence can be solved the patient reconstruction of
    apparently irreversably damaged objects to enable their tedious
    analysis.

    If you believe that cut-up floppy disks cannot be reconstructed you
    should think of the shredded files in the US embassy in Iran which
    were reconstructed and read after the demise of the Shah.
    The same applies to CDs if they are not too badly damaged. DVDs would
    pose a real challenge and as for Blue Ray ....



    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 8, 2010
    #35
  16. dickr2

    Noons Guest

    Bill Graham wrote,on my timestamp of 8/12/2010 3:13 PM:
    No one can improve on your perfection...
     
    Noons, Dec 8, 2010
    #36
  17. Well, in fairness, Bill is a fool, not an asshole.


    --
    Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

    To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
    who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
    that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 8, 2010
    #37
  18. dickr2

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I was actually talking about objects which had been cut up.

    Your example would pose a real challenge but it might just be possible
    to read parts of it. It would have to be very valuable information to
    be worth the effort.



    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 9, 2010
    #38
  19. It'd be a snap: Just use a time machine to go back before it got torched....

    I like Alan's method, and it could be easily combined with cutting up
    with a dull pair of tin snips. Shards first, fry later.

    A real question: The other night a DVD was allegedly made unreadable by
    a single deep scratch across the face of it. (Let's assume it was the
    data side.) Would that render it unreadable— in an ordinary DVD or
    computer drive, that is?
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 9, 2010
    #39
  20. dickr2

    Eric Stevens Guest

    It partly depends whether or not the scratch was enoughh to upset the
    tracking in the reading device. But then, it depends what you mean by
    the 'data side'. You probably already know that the data is written
    within the DVD and neither side is properly the data side.



    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 9, 2010
    #40
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