Why are the smallest Dslr's "entry level" ?

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by John Smith, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. John Smith

    John Smith Guest

    Something just occurred to me in my search for the smallest (or near so)
    Dslr for EDC duty... they all seem to be "entry level"...

    That seems very curious in that there must be millions of very skilled
    advanced photographers world wide who would benefit from a professional set
    up that has been considerably scaled down.

    Even me, since I cut my teeth on a Nikon F, and shoot (mostly mediocre)
    stills for my own pleasure, certainly don't need a boatload of advanced
    features on a camera (just good glass).

    But since I carry one 24/7 in often abusive environments, I sure could
    benefit from a weather/dust /impact proof tank of a body in a very small
    package.

    Certainly the trend in video imaging ( which pays my bills) is heading that
    way.

    DP
     
    John Smith, Mar 15, 2007
    #1
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  2. John Smith

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    Something just occurred to me in my search for the smallest (or near so)
    A lot of people just don't feel adequate unless their camera is bigger
    than everyone else's.

    steve
     
    Steve Wolfe, Mar 15, 2007
    #2
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  3. John Smith

    Mark² Guest

    Perhaps you can point to the extra room for "scaling down" in this thing??
    http://upload.pbase.com/image/75675280/original
    :)
     
    Mark², Mar 15, 2007
    #3
  4. In dog terms, you want a chihuahua with the physique of a pitbull.

    Ain't gonna happen :^)

    I have both the light Pentax K110D and the heavier K10D and can easily
    appreciate the differences in price, features, and feel.
     
    Charles Gillen, Mar 15, 2007
    #4
  5. John Smith

    Mark² Guest

    There a great many legitimate reasons why they are larger:

    -One is...toughness. Many pros (sports sidelines, PJs and wildlife photogs)
    often end up having to assume their gear is tough...so they build them
    tough. This means heavier, reinforced bodies, and beefier non-metal parts.
    -Also, when speed is important (like 8-10 frames per second), larger motors
    are needed for shutter/mirror movements.
    -Full, or larger sensor frame sizes mean larger prisms and prism housings.
    -100% viewfinders also mean larger sizes.
    -Next, you have larger, high-capacity batteries for prolonged shooting
    sessions.
    -More connections (studio flash, remotes, wireless, etc.).
    -Scroll wheels
    -Multiple information LCDs (the 1 series from Canon has an LCD on top, a
    large screen on back, and an addition LCD read-out on the back.
    -Stronger, heavier lens mounts, given the weight and stress put on them
    using heavier glass.
    -Everything is built for reliability, rather than low cost. This means they
    don't skimp on materials.
    -Rubber grips rather than thin, smooth plastic.
    -Vertical grip with a full set of controls for portrait mode shooting...
    -Heavier media doors, often metal, instead of plastic...
    -Many house more than one memory card (1 series from Canon houses both CF
    and SD).
    -External buttons for more functions, offering faster handling than
    menu-driven everything...

    The list goes on and on.
    When you hear people throw in their "trying to impress with size" lines, it
    just means you've identified someone who is not particularly familiar with
    the wildly varying capabilites and intended workloads they are intended for.

    Mark²
     
    Mark², Mar 15, 2007
    #5
  6. John Smith

    just bob Guest

    Integral veridical grip on the pro models.

    You may not have noticed but the latest pro model from Canon (1D mkIII) is a
    bit smaller than its predecessors while also having a larger LCD than ever
    before.
     
    just bob, Mar 15, 2007
    #6
  7. John Smith

    C J Campbell Guest

    That would be a Scottish terrier. Somewhat bigger than a chihuahua,
    smaller than a pitbull, but with similar physique, teeth of a German
    shepherd. :)
     
    C J Campbell, Mar 15, 2007
    #7
  8. Or maybe just a cat with claws(most cats are very similar looking).Meeeow!
    http://www.picato.net/
    The chinese say that the cat doesn't matter if it's black or white, it has
    to catch the mice.
     
    Tzortzakakis Dimitrios, Mar 15, 2007
    #8
  9. John Smith

    dj_nme Guest

    It also seems to be about bragging rights over features that (I suspect)
    aren't used terribly much.
    A heavy camera is sometimes useful, because that extra space can be used
    to stow bigger batteries and adding a vertical shutter button.
    For my Pentax *ist-DS, I 've built a customised battery/vertical grip
    that adds a vertical shutter button and a 4 C-cell external battery to
    the camera.
    The added weight makes hand-holding long exposures (1/2 second and
    longer) that much easier.

    The point is that the actual camera body itself is quite small and
    doesn't require the added grip to function.
    I usualy joke that when I put the grip onto my DSLR camera that it
    becomes a Pentax D1x ;-)
     
    dj_nme, Mar 15, 2007
    #9
  10. John Smith

    John Smith Guest

    I agree. I don't think the reason is that they "can't" build a non "entry
    level" Dslr is small size, it's that for some reason, they don't "want" to
    do so.

    And that's what I don't understand. It seems to me that there would be a
    pretty sizable market for such an item...

    After all, not everyone who buys a high end camera does so to shoot snaps of
    the local football team.

    DP
     
    John Smith, Mar 16, 2007
    #10
  11. John Smith

    ASAAR Guest

    Especially if the pros want lots of red eye. Give 'em that and
    soon they'll be asking for voice annotation and maybe video too. :)
     
    ASAAR, Mar 16, 2007
    #11
  12. John Smith

    Bill Funk Guest

    it seems like you're asking for a niche camera; not a problem, unless
    the niche isn't big enough to make up the costs of designing &
    marketing the camera.
    The 20Da is a niche camera, but it's just a modification of the 20D.
    Making a pro camera the size of a 40D isn't a modification, it's an
    entirely new camera.
    Maybe if the design included a phone, that would help?
    :)

    --
    Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
    faced anger in Congress this week
    over illegal wiretapping. He forced
    banks and phone companies to give
    up private records of American
    citizens without a warrant. At
    least Richard Nixon had the decency
    to use burglars.
     
    Bill Funk, Mar 16, 2007
    #12
  13. I doubt it. As far as I can tell, quality zooms are simply too heavy for
    small cameras.

    It's different for small prime wide-angles. You really want a small camera
    for those. But most 'serious' photographers use quite heavy chunks of
    glass, and you need a camera that can counter balance the lens.

    Just take an original Nikon F and put a 70-200VR on it. My guess is that
    the handling will be quite bad compared to a D2X.
     
    Philip Homburg, Mar 16, 2007
    #13
  14. John Smith

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    I doubt it. As far as I can tell, quality zooms are simply too heavy for
    I think that's not true. A 70-200 f/2.8L IS does just fine on a Rebel XT,
    even if you're only supporting everything just by the camera body with the
    lens "out", ready to shoot. And at that point, the moment-arm (torque)
    makes things pretty tough to hold for very long. And I've seen pictures of
    people with BIG lenses (like the Bigma, and even a 500mm f/4.0L) on their
    XT, letting everything "hang" while they only held the camera - which again,
    isn't somthing you can usually do for very long unless you're Mr. Olympia.
    In other words, the camera can support more than the photographer usually
    can... People forget that the XT has a stainless steel inner frame, and
    that's a LOT of tensile strength...

    And either way, whether you have a Reb XT or a 1D Mk III with a big lens,
    you support the lens, not the camera. It's not that the camera can't take
    it, but that it's easier for you no matter which size of camera you have.

    Just a couple of days ago, I was helping a friend of mine clean his 30D,
    and had to tease him about how big and unwieldy his camera is (since he
    teases me about how small mine is). He said that he liked having the
    controls, and I showed him that I could better work the various controls
    one-handed with my XT than with his 30D, and he didn't really know what to
    say.

    I told him that my dream would be one of Olympus' "pancake" lenses on my
    camera. At that point, I could slip the entire thing into my jeans pocket.
    Of course, I also have a laptop with just a 12" screen - and paid a lot to
    get one that small - just because I don't like carrying around lots of bulk.
    Weight doesn't bother me, but I get sick of lugging around tons of "stuff".

    Steve
     
    Steve Wolfe, Mar 17, 2007
    #14
  15. John Smith

    J. Clarke Guest

    Oh, he knew what to say all right, but he was too polite to say it.

    You may _think_ that you showed him how your camera was "better" but
    what you really showed him was that you were going to be an annoyance
    until he humored you.

    I'm curious as to how you adjust the zoom and press the shutter with
    one hand.
    So get one. It'll fit with a suitable adapter.
    Mighty baggy jeans. Gotta be a kid who goes in for the style that looks
    like they're falling off.
    Then why not carry a point-and-shoot?
     
    J. Clarke, Mar 17, 2007
    #15
  16. John Smith

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    liked having the controls, and I showed him that I could better work
    What you're showing me is that you don't know me, you don't know the other
    person in question, and you weren't there for the conversation, yet you're
    making assumptions anyway. In other words, you're a complete idiot.
    Easy. I twist the zoom with one hand, and press the shutter with another.
    I do it all the time, with my 70-200 f/2.8 and other zoom lenses, from small
    to big. Whoa! What was that? The shound of YOU BEING WRONG because you
    made idiotic assumptions. Too bad. I'm sure you'll try and compensate with
    something else, though.
    "Ha-ha!" You being wrong again. Too bad. You may *think* that you're
    cool by making assumptions and personal attacks against people, but here's a
    clue: When your assumptions are wrong (and your attacks, too), YOU are the
    idiot.
    Lots of reasons. Size isn't the *only* thing that matters to me.

    steve
     
    Steve Wolfe, Mar 17, 2007
    #16
  17. John Smith

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    I wrote another message in a hurry, and sort of flew off of the handle. I
    canceled it (but it still might appear), but here's a better rely.
    You've made a wrong assumption. The guy in question has no problem
    telling people if he thinks they're wrong, stating his opinion, or even just
    giving someone crap. In fact, while I took one time to rib him back, I
    probably take five times as much as I get. I can't take my camera out
    without him making some sort of comment about it.
    I didn't say that I worked the lens and camera, but the camera.
    Again, a wrong assumption. If we're going to make ad hominem attacks
    based on USENET, I'll guess that you're middle-aged, overweight, balding,
    and don't really have a wide group of friends in real life. Was I any
    closer than you were?

    steve
     
    Steve Wolfe, Mar 17, 2007
    #17
  18. John Smith

    J. Clarke Guest

    Just wanted to see if you'd respond with reasoned discourse or get
    pissed off. You got pissed off.
    That's not using one hand, that's using two hands.
    You're the one who claimed that he could manipulate the controls with
    one hand. Now you're telling us that you use two. So which is it?
    So tell us what brand of jeans you wear that have a pocket that will
    hold a Rebel XT.
    I see.
     
    J. Clarke, Mar 17, 2007
    #18
  19. John Smith

    J. Clarke Guest

    I see. So what can you control on the XT with one hand that you can't
    control on the 30D with one hand?
    Tell us again about this brand of jeans that has pockets that will hold
    a Rebel XT.
     
    J. Clarke, Mar 17, 2007
    #19
  20. John Smith

    Joan Guest

    I don't think it's just the camera :)

    --
    Joan
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

    :> Something just occurred to me in my search for the smallest (or
    near so)
    : > Dslr for EDC duty... they all seem to be "entry level"...
    :
    : A lot of people just don't feel adequate unless their camera is
    bigger
    : than everyone else's.
    :
    : steve
    :
    :
     
    Joan, Mar 17, 2007
    #20
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