Why don't crop sensor cameras have crop weight bodies?

Discussion in 'Digital SLR' started by Wally, Feb 1, 2011.

  1. Wally

    C J Campbell Guest

    Seemed to work better than leaving in a snit.
     
    C J Campbell, Feb 8, 2011
    #61
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  2. Wally

    Peter N Guest

    Snit for snot
     
    Peter N, Feb 8, 2011
    #62
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  3. Wally

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Your spelling let you down. You would have done much better in one of
    these: http://tinyurl.com/4h6557s
     
    Eric Stevens, Feb 9, 2011
    #63
  4. Cell phone cameras dominate. Everyone has one or three.
    Many people don't have a compact camera.

    Of course, for sunshine shots your average compact or phone camera
    does very well, and good ones are excellent. Indoors most need
    flash already during the day.


    BTW, utilizing a huge dewar flask full of liquid nitrogen
    and a tripod you *can* make available light portraits with
    compact cameras. Even on a summer's night outside, where just
    a small campfire or a single candle adds light to a moonless,
    overcast night. You'll still need some effective noise and hot
    pixel supression for your compact camera. Maybe even dark frames
    to combat thermal glow.

    Been there, done just that. With a big camera, sometimes using
    a big lens, handheld, and without the participants being frozen
    to death. And it's much more portable and long term storable
    than the liquid nitrogen.

    Yes, if you know what you are doing --- which may mean multiple
    flash units placed and balanced just right and a willing subject
    with time and tolerance (and the ability to act) --- you can pull
    off flash shots that look natural and spontaneous. But most
    compact cameras can't even adjust flash power, much less tilt
    and swivel the head. A few cameras have at least a hot shoe,
    but even if the owners have flash unit(s) they usually don't
    carry them casually like cameras.


    All of which means that I'll keep my big camera and use it whenever
    there's something special. Especially as I carry 'casual' cameras
    (plural by now) and know what they cannot do.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 11, 2011
    #64
  5. They still make film. You can probably have it cut into
    smaller sizes.
    Forget AF. Use a fixed focus. Or maybe throw in a switch
    'portrait/landscape'.
    Forget viewfinders, use a tiny, not parallax corrected tunnel
    viewer.
    Forget the LCD (and save battery power). 35mm film had no
    LCD either.
    But not much, and you don't need film spools.
    but can be shaped arbitrarily as an inbuilt LiPo battery.
    (Maybe fill one of the no-longer-needed film spools except for
    the card slot. That should give you plenty power.)

    Or use a standard round cell and live with the limited power
    it gives you --- after all, you never will want more than 24 or
    36 images. Film didn't manage more either.
    I've seen tiny inbuild flash on one-time use 35mm film cameras,
    so it doesn't need to be bulky. (It won't be powerful, either,
    just enough to light a portrait at 1 or 1.5 meters.)
    Keep the 24x36mm sensor, just cut away all the fluff, see
    above. Have it use a microSD, they are tiny, can store lots
    and can be exchanged by the user.

    Then you'll have the tinyest, most impotent full frame camera.
    (Think: small plastic one time use film camera for <$10 with
    development, but in digital). Noone will buy one as it'll be *way*
    to expensive, as the sensor can't be miniaturized for cost savings.

    And remember, the modern compact cameras are larger than the small
    models of their earlier bretheren: the screen already takes all
    of the rear and cannot be shrunk, either.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 11, 2011
    #65
  6. I seem to remember reading about some rangefinder camera using the
    reflection of a white painted leaf in the middle of the shutter
    curtain for metering ...

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 11, 2011
    #66
  7. Wally

    shiva das Guest

    The Leica M6, M7, and MP film rangefinders use this method of metering.
    I don't know how the M8.x and M9 work their metering because I've never
    used them.

    Metering off the shutter curtain was developed after the M5, the first
    Leica "M" with an integral meter flopped -- besides the fact that the M5
    was significantly larger than the M4 which preceded it, its meter cell
    was on a swinging arm that occupied the space between the lens's rear
    element and the film plane. This didn't work for lenses with extensive
    back focus, such as the 21mm f/3.4 or f/4, which would routinely break
    the meter cell arm off, or at least prevent it from swinging into place.
    (The modern 21mm f/2.8 doesn't extend nearly as far toward the film
    plane.)

    Modern M6 et seq. place the SBC meter sensor out of the way diagonally
    from the entire imaging volume between the flange and film.

    Additionally, all Leica lenses are sold with a leather pouch which has a
    50% gray circle printed on the bottom so you don't have to carry a gray
    card.

    M6 Metering circle:
    <http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/Leica/Leica-M6/images/lei
    ca-M6blk-F.jpg>

    Same, close-up (SBC sensor hidden behind baffle, upper left):
    <http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00W/00Wtno-261671584.JPG>

    Leica 21mm f/4 showing the extreme rear element length:
    <http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/images/21mm-f4/D3S_5805-1200.jpg>
     
    shiva das, Feb 12, 2011
    #67
  8. Wally

    Better Info Guest

    This may be true for rangefinders, but OTF (off the film) metering was
    first developed and implemented in the Olympus OM2 line of cameras back in
    the mid 1970's.

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_OM-2>
    <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Olympus_OM-2>

    It used 2 metering systems. One using CdS cells for the light reaching your
    eye in the OVF while the mirror was down, to give you an estimated exposure
    reading in the viewfinder display, and the other SBC cell method which did
    the actual exposure metering when the photo was taken.

    For shutter speeds shorter than those needing OTF metering (~>1/4s), the
    same metering components were still used (not truly OTF but
    off-the-curtain) whereby the first black shutter-curtain (the side facing
    forward toward the backward facing SBC cells) was painted with a
    silvery-white random pattern of squares (like large pixelation), a
    computer-generated random pattern. Later production models introduced a
    center-weighted pixelized pattern on the shutter curtain. Though this was
    more of a centralized horizontal band (so it would read the same during its
    horizontal travel) rather than a true oval or circular center-weighted
    pattern.

    <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Olympus_OM2_OTF.jpg>

    Note the two different metering patterns that were implemented, shown on
    this page:
    <http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/olympusom1n2/om2/htmls/index2.htm>

    However, that above page is in error because the length of auto-exposure
    was never increased from 1 to 2 minutes, it was decreased from 12 to 2
    minutes.

    The greatest benefit for this method was for astrophotographers and
    available-light nighttime photographers who required automated exposures of
    up to and over 10 minutes in duration. The photographer taking each film's
    unique reciprocity problems into account by adjusting the ASA setting on
    the camera appropriately. The typical snapshooter and SLR-jewelry buyer
    could not be bothered with such mind-boggling concepts and complained to
    the company when their long-exposure images weren't turning out like they
    wanted. So their automatic OTF exposure-metering was soon crippled to 2
    minutes or less to stop their whining. Luckily I still have one of the
    originals that still meters OTF correctly for >12 minute exposures. Few of
    the >12-minute cameras were sold before the 2-minute crippling had begun
    and became standard store fodder.
     
    Better Info, Feb 12, 2011
    #68
  9. Wally

    shiva das Guest

    I was answering a question specifically about rangefinders.
     
    shiva das, Feb 12, 2011
    #69
  10. No need to answer our local pest. Worse Info doesn't even
    grasp the difference between flash metering and available
    light metering.

    -Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Weisselberg, Feb 12, 2011
    #70
  11. Wally

    Better Info Guest

    Just to enlighten the perpetual stupidity of the RESIDENT TROLLS, it should
    be noted that this was also used for their TTL flash-metering system.
     
    Better Info, Feb 12, 2011
    #71
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