Why oh why did I have to find out about 24p?

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by Axinar, Aug 6, 2004.

  1. Axinar

    Axinar Guest

    Actually I didn't even find out about 24p directly -- I was watching
    some of the "extra footage" on a PBS DVD and they were saying
    something to the effect, "24 Frame HDTV has been a true godsend".

    I got to thinking about this ... I'm thinking, "Hmmmm ... they must be
    talking about the 480p mode set to 24 frames/second."

    So I do some digging around and I bump into this Panasonic AG-DVX100A
    -- which of course by itself costs as much as the entire stack of D100
    stuff that I have -- to say nothing of the ... what ... $3000 worth of
    Avid software it takes to run the thing, plus, what, $2500 to $3000
    for a PC that can handle the Avid software.

    Question ...

    Have any of you ever watched the "extra footage" on the tail end of
    the "Bamboozled" DVD? This movie was CLEARLY shot in 480i/60 on one
    of the early iterations of the DV format. How did they downstep to 24
    frames/second to get it onto film?

    Thanks!

    Ax
     
    Axinar, Aug 6, 2004
    #1
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  2. Axinar

    Vic Morris Guest

    Have any of you ever watched the "extra footage" on the tail end of
    Yup, "Bamboozled" was shot on a VX1000. I think SONY did the transfer to film,
    but I might be wrong.

    Got to www.dvfilm.com and check out there $99 software for converting
    interlaced into 24p.

    For $99 it does a great job. I bet a similar process was used on "Bamboozled".
    Probably cost a lot more back then...

    Peace,
    Vic Morris
    http://vicmorris.blogspot.com
     
    Vic Morris, Aug 7, 2004
    #2
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  3. Most of the PBS producers are using Final Cut Pro these days. So
    there's no need for 5000+ dollar avid systems any more.

    http://www.apple.com/pro/video/ehrlich/index3.html

    And FCP supports 24fps, and the tools for doing such conversion are
    built right in now to FCP HD.

    Oh.. and yeah, that Panasonic DVX100a is causing quite the stir these
    days too. It's just awesome!

    -Richard
     
    Richard Ragon, Aug 7, 2004
    #3
  4. Axinar

    Tony Guest

    There are a few companies that specialize in transfer of video to film. It's
    been done for quite some time, now. Remember "Blair Witch"?
     
    Tony, Aug 7, 2004
    #4
  5. Axinar

    nappy Guest

    Richard... thanks for the Apple ad.. . The statement you made is not only
    unprovable but .. rediculous. $5000 systems? a decent FCP (decent?) system
    is not free.. nor is it any cheaper than similar competition..
     
    nappy, Aug 7, 2004
    #5
  6. Ahh..ok.. no commercial, just stating a fact. Many studios, including
    several that I've involved with or do business with have moved to all
    FCP systems, simply because you can buy 4 FCP systems for the price of 1
    Avid system..

    I'm very sorry that you don't like these facts, but it doesn't change
    anything... sorry.

    -Richard
     
    Richard Ragon, Aug 8, 2004
    #6
  7. Axinar

    Fidel Viegas Guest

    DVFilm.com is one of them.

    Check their page.

    All the best

    Fidel.
     
    Fidel Viegas, Aug 8, 2004
    #7
  8. Axinar

    nappy Guest


    That's probalby more accurate.. but still BS. You can buy DV systems for
    less but you really don't save that much when you are putting together
    competing systems.. And I don't know who you work with but ALL of the
    facilities that I use relegate the FCP systems to low budget clients..
    Mostly because FCP is still a buggy mess. Just a complete piece of shit.

    Your post wasn't fact. Just an Apple commercial. And a little hopeful on
    your part. I believe it was you who posted that you do editing as a side
    job.. perfect candidate for FCP.. you don't really have to depend on it and
    can put up with its bugs and performance issues. If you think major
    facilities are giving up their AVIDs to put up with FCP.. you're dreaming.
    Sorry.
     
    nappy, Aug 8, 2004
    #8
  9. Axinar

    Bill Davis Guest

    I see it's time for my semi-regular "keep Nappy from going nuts and
    frothing at the mouth" post.

    Lets see, the score for FCP - what he calles a "buggy mess" now ranges
    into sitcoms, dramatic work for TV and feature films, and literally
    thousands of independent DV features.

    Somehow Apple and FCP has managed to MESMERIZE the tens of thousands of
    working professionals that use it every day into somehow overlooking what
    HE perceives as it's massive faults. Some trick, huh?

    And according to old nappy, we're all IDIOTS for using FCP!

    And if we just had HIS keen perceptions, we'd all realize that all these
    pesky clients PAYING for our FCP work are, also, fools.
    Still to date, full scale (and quite expensive) AVIDs and MUCH less
    expensive Final Cut Pro systems are the only hardware/software
    combinations regularly used to edit major hollywood movies and episodic
    television programs where millions of dollars of investment are on the
    line.

    That certainly does NOT mean that there isn't other, equally capable
    software out there - just that to date, these twp systems had an
    established record of success making them safe choices for professional
    work.

    Come to your own conclusions.

    (nappy's the ultimate proof of the old saying "never let the facts get in
    the way of your opinions")
     
    Bill Davis, Aug 8, 2004
    #9
  10. Axinar

    nappy Guest

    And that means? AVIDS are buggy to and a lot more work has been done on
    them.. There's no point there.


    Poor bill... Can't you keep your emotions out of this. I never talk about
    users.. only programs.. surely you have more class than that. For the most
    part it is the CLIENTS who dictate what editors works on. Unfortunately...



    .... Final Cut Pro systems are the only hardware/software
    Spoken like someone who lives and works in Scottsdale Arizona. And maybe
    makes an occasional trip to LA. As someone who routinely works on those
    shows you are talking about.. I can say... You don't know what you are
    talking about.



    yak yak..
    Sorry Bill.. It is the other way around I am afraid.. YOu have NEVER
    addressed my points about FCP being a dog bitch when it comes to sloppy
    coding, sluggish operation, poor performance in rendering and audio
    playback, and on and on... All you can ever muster is an attack on me and
    your old fallback of how many people (you think) are using FCP. And that is
    because you don;t use FCP the way I and manyh others do...And you stated
    that. Time and time again.

    Been fun though.. You've been so quiet lately.
     
    nappy, Aug 8, 2004
    #10
  11. Axinar

    Tony Guest

    Frankly 'thousands of independent DV features' is meaningless to me. You
    could probably say the same about any DV editing system that's been out for
    any length of time.

    I would, however, be curious about the sitcoms, dramatic TV shows, and
    RELEASED features that have been edited on FCP. Any info on the specifics?
     
    Tony, Aug 9, 2004
    #11
  12. Axinar

    Dan Guest

    Isn't there desktop pc software that will take 30p and 60i to 24p?

    Dan
     
    Dan, Aug 9, 2004
    #12
  13. Axinar

    david.mccall Guest

    No problem. Chuck half of your picture information (spatial and
    temporal) to get you down from 60i to 30p and then chuck another
    30% to get you down to 24P, then up chuck :)

    There are people that extract 24p from 60i by evaluating the temporal
    detail that is in the 60i video and convert it to something that looks like
    motion blur, while maintaining the full resolution of portions of the image
    that are not moving. You need the 60i (or 50i PAL) to make it work
    properly. 30p just doesn't have enough temporal information to make
    it work. They claim to use proprietary software to pull off this trick,
    but I've always thought it could probably do it with off the shelf
    software like Retimer. Of course Retimer isn't Cheap (it was $5000
    at one time)

    David
     
    david.mccall, Aug 9, 2004
    #13
  14. How about we start with Cold Mountain, which was nominated for 8 academy
    awards including Walter Murch for best editor..

    http://www.postmagazine.com/post/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=79165
    http://www.apple.com/pro/film/coen/
    http://www.digitalfilmtree.com/images/credits/adaywithoutmexican.html
    http://www.apple.com/pro/film/eason/
    http://www.apple.com/pro/film/lowry/


    Then.. we can mover over to NBC's Scrubs TV show.. I believe that a
    large portion of NBC has moved all the systems to FCP.

    http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec03/novdec03_scrubs_fcp4.html
    http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/10/02/scrubs/index.php

    How about some other TV stations/studios switching from Avid to FCP..

    http://www.apple.com/pro/video/ktvx/
    http://www.pluginz.com/news/606
    http://www.apple.com/uk/hotnews/articles/fcp_india/
    http://www.apple.com/uk/pro/video/groundforce/
    http://www.dvcreators.net/about/
    http://www.apple.com/pro/video/stern/
    http://www.apple.com/uk/pro/video/hangman/
    http://www.acfnewsource.org/art/latino_reality.html
    http://www.reelwest.com/happening/news/2002_july/artifex.htm
    http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news.php?newsId=7
    http://bth.broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_apple_emerges_nab/
    http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/MarApr01/final_cut_mainstream.html
    http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/08/emmy/
    http://www.apple.com/pro/video/perception/
    http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/MayJun01/fcp_seminar.html
    http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Focus-on-editing/f_ja_Final_Cut_Pro.shtml


    And here's one of my favorites.. You know that HBO tvshow called "real
    sex".. done on FCP too!!

    http://homepage.mac.com/stevegarfield/movies/hbo.html

    No telling how many porn studios use FCP now instead of Avid now too. :)

    Google just rocks..
    -Richard
     
    Richard Ragon, Aug 9, 2004
    #14
  15. Axinar

    Bill Fright Guest

    Good try Bill,

    I went round and round with this nappy guy a month ago and like you said
    he never let's a fact get in the way of an argument.

    I think he must have been emotionally scarred by somebody at apple or
    perhaps even fired from there for being a dumbass. It seems every time
    someone mentions FCP he feels the need to talk about problems that only
    exist in his little world. It must be hard to carry such hate.

    For the fun of it I did a little fact checking and none of his theories
    had basis. Kill files work well with him.

    bill
     
    Bill Fright, Aug 9, 2004
    #15
  16. Axinar

    Guy Guest

    Nice list. But why not use Google to do a search for programmes and films
    that have been put together on Avid and that list above will pale into
    insignificance. Fact...

    When you used Google did you type in "Apple propaganda" as your search
    criteria?
     
    Guy, Aug 9, 2004
    #16
  17. Axinar

    nappy Guest

    Bill.. you went round and round? All you did was yak and respond emotionally
    to my FCP rant.. Until you gave up, of course. With no points to make.. most
    people usually do give up.. or start insulting the messenger...
     
    nappy, Aug 9, 2004
    #17
  18. Axinar

    nappy Guest


    Apple propaganda for sure.. No one cares what NBC edits their crap on. And
    as far as Cold Mountain.. what a piece of shit that was.. I couldn't sit
    through the whole thing. Annoying as hell.. Again.. who gives a crapload
    WHAT these shows are cut on? When NORMAL people have to suffer through FCP
    Apple is there holding their hands out for $200 service incidents. I rather
    doubt Mr. Murch paid for service incidents eh? Let's see what Murch uses to
    cut "The Assumption" .. I'll bet it won't be FCP.

    All ANYONE has to do to find out what FCP is really like is visit the
    forums..I've said it a million times.. A point lost on most here who don't
    really use FCP for much more than talking heads... sure it is fine for
    that.. If you can keep it running..
     
    nappy, Aug 9, 2004
    #18
  19. Axinar

    Steve King Guest

    For the same reason that plugging in 35 mm film would make the Avid list
    'pale into insignificance'. It would prove nothing, other than the fact
    that film (and Avid) have been around for years longer than FCP.
    Let's see. You seem to be inferring that a factual list of programs cut
    with FCP is Apple propaganda? Impressive logic.

    Steve King
     
    Steve King, Aug 9, 2004
    #19
  20. Axinar

    nappy Guest

    If that logic escapes you, try this.. what he was saying was that it is a
    typical PR tactic to yak-yak about people using a company's products.. It is
    propaganda and pretty much meaningless because while they may have used FCP,
    Apple would NEVER say how many problems they may have had.. so in that sense
    it is propaganda.
     
    nappy, Aug 9, 2004
    #20
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