Why Sony's Blu Ray has already lost the format war to HD DVD

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by slugbug, Nov 7, 2006.

  1. slugbug

    slugbug Guest

    After reading a lot of different articles about the two formats, I
    decided to stay far, far away from Sony's Blu-Ray technology. I want to
    be able to archive my own disks to my computer, so that I can watch the
    movie over my network whenever I want, without constantly having to get
    the actual disk down from the shelf.

    With Blu-Ray, that would be virtually impossible. Why?

    Well, with all lf the Blu-Ray players, there is a "back door" built in.

    This back door lets hollywood deactivate your player if anyone in the
    world with the same hardware happens to break their encryption. They do
    this by essentially writing in a "denial of service" message on the
    disks themselves, specifically telling it not to work properly on your
    player. It won't work again until you download a firmware upgrade, and
    update your machine. It is yet another step towards giving hollywood
    control over your machine.

    Remember DIVX, anyone? No, I'm not talking about the video compression
    codec. I'm talking about the players that let you watch the disks once,
    and made your machine call in to a database regularly. It was a
    competitor to DVD that came out about 8 years ago. Blu-Ray is a lot
    like that.

    There is a huge hacking community out there that will dedicate itself
    to breaking the encryption, just like they did with DVD's. Heck, they
    could break the new encryption on certain machines ever 3 weeks if they
    really worked at it. How would you like to be one of the folks owning
    that certain player? Or what if your Grandma, who might not have an
    Internet connection, had that player? She would get the headache of
    having her system stop working properly with rental disks every few
    weeks. Considering that Sony did the infamous rootkit thing, I'm not
    all that surprised that they are behind the Blu Ray disks.

    HD DVD doesn't incorporate this "back door" hollywood control
    mechanism. This means that the control over the player rests with you,
    and not hollywood.

    Sure, Sony and its affiliated studios are spending 4 times as much
    advertising how "great" Blu-Ray is. They are also hoping that if they
    only release their movies on Blu-Ray, you will decide to buy one of
    their players, thus ensuring that they win the format war, and further
    the cause of "eSlavery".

    So, you want to become an "eSlave"? Buy Blu-Ray. Want to keep your
    rights, and not have to mess with updating your player's firmware every
    month? Buy HD DVD.

    Add to that the fact that HD DVD disks are easier to manufacture and
    will cost less, and it is really a no-brainer to see why HD DVD is the
    smart choice.
    slugbug, Nov 7, 2006
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  2. On a sunny day (7 Nov 2006 09:39:19 -0800) it happened "slugbug"

    Blue ray will win because it has more space, for example as a back
    up medium for the PC.
    It is all about space.
    Jan Panteltje, Nov 7, 2006
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  3. slugbug

    slugbug Guest

    Blue ray will win because it has more space, for example as a back
    If you truly believe that, then I wish you had been to my yard sale
    about two months ago. I was finally selling my two Superdisk (LS-120)
    drives. Yes, these are the same drives that were developed by Iomega,
    at the same time they were working on the 100 MB Zip drives. Iomega
    eventually spun off the 120 MB Superdisk drives to 3M, and released the
    Zip 100 themselves. 3M spun the project off to form Imation, and both
    formats competed in the marketplace.

    Despite the fact that the Superdisk drives held 20% more space,
    despite the fact that motherboard manufacturers built support for them
    into their BIOS as a bootable option, and DESPITE the fact that the
    SuperDisk drives would read and write to a standard 3.5" floppy as
    well, the Zip 100 won the battle.
    slugbug, Nov 7, 2006
  4. slugbug

    Kill Bill Guest

    BetaMax was far superior quality than VHS.. look where that went.

    Kill Bill, Nov 7, 2006
  5. slugbug

    David McCall Guest

    Not in my experiance.
    At times it was a little better, but then VHS would add
    their next improvement and catch up. S-VHS at it's best,
    was on par or better than anything Sony did with BetaMax.

    To say BetaMax was "measurably better" than VHS would be OK,
    but to call it "far superior quality than VHS" is a stretch.

    David McCall, Nov 7, 2006
  6. slugbug

    Toby Guest

    The double-sided Blu-rays hold 50 gigs and the double-sided HD-DVDs hold 30
    gigs. Basically as long as you can fit a full-length movie in HD on either
    it is a viable medium.

    I can burn double-sided DVDs but perfer to burn to simple DVDs because the
    media are much cheaper. So after a certain point it is also about price, and
    convenience. Now that NEC has developed the technology to play either in the
    same player we will probably have both around until the next tech evolution.

    Toby, Nov 8, 2006
  7. slugbug

    Spex Guest

    If the competition is determined by how many units will be sold then HVD
    will be the clear winner. HVD based on red laser technology and the
    target market is Asia in particular India and China.

    Its an affordable and pragmatic solution to HD film playback with
    players selling at between 1/10 and 1/5 of current blu-ray and HD DVD
    Spex, Nov 8, 2006
  8. slugbug

    yarock Guest

    Anyone have any idea about when we'll be ble to author/burn hdv dvd's?
    Got a great camera(Canon H1) and it would be nice to eventualy be able
    to show the content in hd...
    Bruce S. Yarock
    yarock, Nov 8, 2006
  9. Agreed, but at some point people will want less compression and store
    at the highest bitrate possible.
    I remember I used to put 3 CDs in a box for one 2.1 GB movie.....
    Binary split.
    I still have these.... many hundreds.
    I'd rather have less disks, it is 60% less disks for blue-ray.
    Makes a lot of difference here on the shelves.
    Jan Panteltje, Nov 8, 2006
  10. slugbug

    Frank Guest

    Why Sony's Blu Ray has already lost the format war to
    HD DVD>,

    You wrote "HVD" above. That's Holographic Versatile Disc, right?

    Am I correct in assuming that you meant to write "VMD", as in
    Versatile Multilayer Disc, and not HVD?
    Frank, Nov 8, 2006
  11. slugbug

    Spex Guest

    You are absolutely correct. I wrote without necessary stimulants, i.e
    caffeine, coursing through my veins. :)

    Yep VMD.

    Thanks for pointing out the error.
    Spex, Nov 8, 2006
  12. slugbug

    Frank Guest

    Why Sony's Blu Ray has already lost the format war to
    HD DVD>,
    Figured as much. :)
    Oh, yes, we know that feeling here all too well. It takes me almost
    two hours, and two mugs of *very strong* coffee (you know, the kind
    that a spoon will stand up in), before I'm fully "in gear".
    Okay, that's what I thought, based upon what you had written.
    No problem, but do note their (NME) financial situation. I've read
    most of their SEC filings and it seems that they really do need a
    large cash infusion soon if they're to succeed even in the India
    and/or Chinese markets.

    OTOH, their shares were up 0.03 today.
    Frank, Nov 8, 2006
  13. slugbug

    GMAN Guest

    Even in its day, who the hell used 100 MB zip disks when almost every other
    medium was larger. By the time Zip's came out, we already had rewriteable CDRW
    at 650MB
    GMAN, Nov 9, 2006
  14. slugbug

    Maxheadspace Guest

    Blu Ray will lose because it priced itself out of the market. In an effort
    to come out with the most bells, whistles, and storage space, Sony ended up
    with a product that was way too expensive and market un-friendly. Right now
    I can burn up to 40 minutes of HD-DVD video on conventional DVD-R disks
    using my stock DVD burner. My only investment was Ulead MovieFactory 5
    which cost me $49. The HD-DVD player is half the price of a Sony Blu Ray

    I bought my HDV camera to be on the leading edge of getting HD products out
    there. I can do so right now, with some limitations, going the HD-DVD

    I love Sony products, but I get the impression that Sony wanted to add
    bullet-proof anti-pirating protection to their disks, which increased the
    complexity and cost of their product.

    I'll keep chugging along with HD-DVD, because I know the market is growing.
    It's simpler, it's cheaper, and it's here now.

    Maxheadspace, Nov 10, 2006
  15. slugbug

    Spex Guest

    I hope both products fail. The overriding concern during the
    development of these two HD formats were the lining of the pockets of
    corporations and not the satisfaction of the end user.

    The very fact that there is another format war to be played out with the
    consumers' cash is reprehensible. I shall be boycotting both formats
    until the price has fallen to current levels or, what is more likely, a
    competing technology usurps the pair of formats.

    Combine technologies similar to Apple's iTV and internet access that
    South Korea currently enjoys where bandwidth is measured in MB/s rather
    than Mb/s and you see the future of content delivery to the home.

    Next gen DVD? No ta, I think I'll skip this one...
    Spex, Nov 10, 2006
  16. Well, here in my country you can only buy Blue Ray DVD writers,
    no HD DVD writers.

    Blue Ray DVD writers: 750 Euro.

    And I can buy
    Blue ray rewriteble 5 25 GB for 90 Euro, 18 a piece, or .720 Euro per GB.
    Blue ray recordable 5 25 GB for 70 Euro, 14 a piece, or .560 Euro per GB.
    HD-DVD recordable 1 15 GB for 10 Euro, 10 a piece, or .666 Euro per GB.


    I have rounded some numbers.

    So this proves you wrong on all points here, availability, price, price per GB,
    and we have rewriteble Blue Ray too, so tha twil lsave you even more in testing.

    I expect prices of the burners to come down considerably in the next few years,
    also prices of the media, and double layer to appear.
    It is still more expensive per GB then normal DVD.
    Jan Panteltje, Nov 10, 2006
  17. slugbug

    slugbug Guest

    Right now I can burn up to 40 minutes of HD-DVD video on conventional DVD-R disks
    I use Nero 7 Ultimate, and with their h.246 (Nero AVC) compression,
    you can easily fit:

    over 24 hours of regular quality video or,

    over 4 hours of 1920x1080 HD content

    This is on a regular old DVD +R disk.

    That means that I can burn a couple of HD movies to a regular DVD,
    then play them on my PC, without buying a new drive or anything. My
    only expense was about $50 for the Nero 7 Ultimate Edition software.

    The resulting disks should be playable in any of the new standalone
    players, since they are h.264 compatible. For right now, though, I'll
    just stick with what I've already got.
    slugbug, Nov 10, 2006
  18. slugbug

    Sally Guest

    Agreed, but at some point people will want less compression and store
    I'm guessing that price is no object, but disc space is?
    Sally, Nov 11, 2006
  19. Shelve space is expensive :)
    Jan Panteltje, Nov 11, 2006
  20. slugbug

    Tony Guest

    Even in its day, who the hell used 100 MB zip disks when almost every other
    Are you kidding? In 1995, I bought a Zip Drive for $199 or so. The 100MB discs were $15. That was a
    great alternative to expensive hard disks. The first 1GB drives were $1000! In 1996, I bought my
    first CD-R drive and it cost me $600 and blanks were $10 each, which turned into coasters real fast
    after the slightest hiccup from the computer. ZIPS were a great medium to use during the transition
    from expensive hard drives to affordable CDRom Drives. Heck, in 2000 I purchased a 10x HP CD RW
    Writer for $200 and that was a DEAL!

    You may be getting your years mixed up.

    Tony, Nov 12, 2006
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