Womble Wizard - aspect ratios (again)

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Terry Pinnell, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. I'm pretty sure Jukka has given me enough advice in the past to work
    this out for myself, but I'd appreciate a simple answer if anyone has
    one please. Christmas calls, I have a DVD to finish!

    I import a 640 x 480 AVI, freshly downloaded to PC from my Ixus 60
    digicam, into the Womble Wizard. But it displays it slightly squashed.
    Is that to be expected? Other programs I have, such as MemoriesOn TV,
    display it correctly. And when I say 'display', I mean within the
    editor and also in the finished DVD-compliant MPG. As an 'end-user'
    application, wizard based, I'd have expected Womble WVW to be like
    MoTV in this respect, namely 'WYSIWYG'.

    If that is indeed WVW's designed behaviour, what do other users do
    about it please? Resize in VirtualDub before import?
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 24, 2006
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  2. Terry Pinnell

    Ken Maltby Guest

    I would edit AVI in an AVI editor and MPEG in a MPEG
    editor. In a project with both, it is when the AVI is being
    encoded that aspect and resampling/scaling/resizing is

    Ken Maltby, Dec 24, 2006
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  3. Thanks Ken, but not sure I understand. I merely imported the AVIs
    (several identical types) into WVW, and then encoded. No 'editing' was
    done. This was to make a quick and simple DVD. Should I have resized
    them first?
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 24, 2006
  4. Terry Pinnell

    Ken Maltby Guest

    Apparently you can import AVI to WVW's timeline, but I don't
    get the "and then encoded". If you used WVW to do the encoding
    how long did it take related to the playback time for the AVI clip in

    That aside, I prefer to use an encoder to do such conversions. In
    this case converting/encoding the AVI to the same parameters as the
    rest of the MPEG in the project. The TMPGEnc XPress encoders
    have input filters and settings as well as output settings to deal with
    those issues. Do you have the version of WVW that includes DVD
    creation? If you are making the DVD in another authoring program,
    it's best to feed it DVD compliant MPEG, and no reason to put the
    AVI in WVW, unless you were adding transitions, titles or a common
    audio track, but that would be "editing" as the term is used in this NG.

    Ken Maltby, Dec 25, 2006
  5. Now you've got me wondering if I used the wrong term. I simply meant
    hit the Export button, to encode the files in the specified format. In
    my case that's usually DVD-PAL (16:9). All imported files, whether
    MPG, JPG, AVI, whatever, become a single DVD-compliant MPG. Isn't that
    I didn't note it, but I've just done another. The AVI is 12.2s long
    and WVW took about 54s to export it to TestAVI.mpg, fairly typical.
    Not sure why you're asking though? Obviously, WVW processes at
    'encoding rate', as the raw AVIs are not yet in DVD-compliant MPG
    form. (Using the Details button naturally shows a solid red rather
    than blue bar.)

    FWIW, GSpot reports TestAVI.mpg as 12.8s long, of DVD 16:9 format, and
    Pic (wxh) 720 x 576, SAR 1.250 (5:4) PAR 1.422 DAR 1.778 (16:9)

    For the original AVI, GSpot reports:
    Pic (wxh) 640 x 480, SAR 1.333 (4:3) PAR 1.000 DAR 1.333 (4:3)
    That seems to imply again that WVW is *not* an encoder...? I've been
    assuming it's an editor *and* an encoder.

    All things being equal, I'd prefer to assemble the clips of various
    types in WVW, add and edit a sound track, and then make an MPG ready
    for authoring in TDA. But if I understand you correctly, you're
    confirming that WVW, unlike MoTV, is not up to the job? And that
    TMPGEnc XPress 3.0 should be used first, to resize these digicam AVIs
    before importing to WVW?
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 26, 2006
  6. Terry Pinnell

    Ken Maltby Guest

    Like most editing packages it has an encoding capability, the
    distinction of its encoding is that it can use "Smart Encoding" to
    match the technical parameters of the source MPEG, and make
    compatible GOPs; allowing the addition of video material to an
    existing MPEG. It is designed to work with MPEG primarily.

    The aspect ratio and sizing issues are easily addressed during
    encoding with The XPress encoders. It seems to me you could
    encode the AVI to MPEG that matches what you will need in
    your WVW project, and at the same time address the problem
    you mentioned. WVW should be able to do anything you have
    it doing to the AVI, to an MPEG instead.

    It can do the encoding but I don't know if it provides the means to
    correct the problem you mentioned, or how well it would do it.
    Yes, I know it can do the job, and WVW should have no problem
    working with the resulting MPEG. Just make sure everything looks
    good in the encoder's preview, if not, try different settings in the source
    "Clip info" "Aspect ratio:" and/or the "Set Output". This can be an
    especially useful approach in any cropping is involved.

    Ken Maltby, Dec 26, 2006
  7. Thanks a lot, Ken, that proved to be sound advice. I don't really
    profess to understand just why the intermediate 3.0 Xpress stage made
    the difference between failure and success, but to my delight it did

    I could maybe understand it if I'd had to resort to making aspect
    changes in one of the two sections you specified, but I decided to
    follow your instructions to the letter and so first tried it in Output
    Preview having changed *nothing*. That displayed no distortion, so I
    proceeded to encode. The finished MPG looked good, so I imported it
    into WVW, instead of the original AVI, and encoded (or rather, simply
    exported, as it presumably needed no encoding by then). And the result
    was fine.

    Do you think it's basically because (as you and Jukka have pointed
    out, and Womble support have sort of hinted themselves in several
    emails over recent weeks) that WVW, whilst accepting AVIs, doesn't
    really handle them properly?

    Anyway, thanks again for the practical advice that promptly sorted
    that one.
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 26, 2006
  8. A puzzling footnote. I imported all the MPGs from 3.0 XPress into WVW,
    added a few fades and a short opening and closing title, and exported.
    But I was surprised to find that, under Detail, virtually the whole of
    the video track was red, not blue. I expected that as the MPGs from
    3.0 XPress were already DVD-compliant, they wouldn't need re-encoding.
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 27, 2006
  9. Terry Pinnell

    Ken Maltby Guest

    The only part that should be re-encoded would be the few GOP
    that had the effects you mention applied to them. That is unless
    you are trying to make one MPEG out of separate MPEGs with
    different basic parameters. All the MPEG Clips must be the same
    on the timeline, or some of them will have to be re-encoded to
    match the first one. Just like the MPEG must match to be in the
    same track in TDA (or a title/VTS of a DVD) so must a single
    MPEG file contain consistent video and audio.

    Ken Maltby, Dec 27, 2006
  10. It's just finished, after close to an hour. For a 9 minute video!
    (Output looks OK.)

    Well, thanks, but it's still a puzzle then. In 3.0 XPress the only
    setting I made after importing the 9 640x480 AVIs was to check the box
    'Output clips separately'. That way, I could add 1s Begin and End
    fades to each clip in WVW. The Detail window looked like this:

    I wonder - could it be something to do with the fact that the digicam
    clips (M-JPEG) from my Canon Ixus are (for some reason) 30 fps?

    BTW, I didn't add an audio track in WVW. The only audio was within the
    clips themselves. So why would I get an audio bar in Detail, albeit
    mainly blue?
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 27, 2006
  11. Terry Pinnell

    Ken Maltby Guest

    Looking at that jpg, I would think that there were 13 items
    on your timeline. That the video for the all but the first item
    was re-encoded. This suggests that while that first item matched
    what is shown in the "Video" box, the rest did not and had to be
    re-encoded to match.

    What is odd is that it appears that the audio for the first item,
    and the transitions, did not match the "Audio"box; but the rest

    I don't know which of the items might be still images, and when
    and how WVW encodes those. Should those items appear in your
    "Project Encode Map" as items that are re-encoded?

    If all the video matched, I would expect to see it like the audio
    line with just the red lines for the transitions. But with the first
    item blue.

    Just to check it out, you might take one of the .mpg you encoded
    with XPress and make a new project in WVW using just that .mpg,
    placing it on the timeline several times with transitions, in between.
    Add titles to the first one on the timeline, as well.

    Ken Maltby, Dec 27, 2006
  12. Thanks Ken, appreciate your sticking with this one.

    Apparently it's because you have to use a special template. Here's
    Womble Support's prompt reply to my email:

    "You should use the "automatic" export template to avoid any
    unnecessary video re-encoding. When "automatic" is selected as the
    export template, the default output MPEG settings will be the one that
    has the longest duration in video in order to minimize video

    Please note that a video re-encoding may result when video encoder
    parameters are changed. Added transition, filter or other effect will
    also cause video re-encoding."

    Trying that did indeed turn the bar blue.

    I'm happy it solves the problem, but it puzzles me. For example, how
    does WVW know that I want a DVD (PAL) 16:9 output if I merely use
    'Automatic'? And, as that is indeed what I get by using Automatic (I
    just tried one), why did it need re-encoding when I specified the DVD
    PAL template explicitly? Nor do I really understand what the phrase
    'the default output MPEG settings will be the one that has the longest
    duration in video' means. Why should any output be any longer or
    shorter than any other?
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 28, 2006
  13. I sent Womble the project, input and MPG output files. This further
    response sheds more light:

    "The format of the MVI_0028.mpg:
    The Bit Rate is 9197.2 kbps

    If you select DVD PAL template, the Bit Rate will change to 8000 kbps.
    So it will re-encoding.

    When 'automatic' is selected as the export template, the default
    output MPEG settings will be the format of original input file."
    Terry Pinnell, Dec 30, 2006
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