Would Ansel Adams use Photoshop?

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Alan Browne, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. Half Dome
    not really
    Well, for most people its not just "safety" ... its a fixed aid that
    people pull up on. It is possible to climb up the cable route without
    pulling up on it if you are a real rock climber. Doing so is much easier
    if you are outside the line of cables since the rock is not worn
    slightly smooth.

    I was able to go down just using the cables for protection,
    not holding on, just wrapping my hands loosely around them.
    I pulled on them going up.
    which really is not needed. The number they allow is determined by
    political correctness, not safety.
    I've done that.
    Note that people climb down from where that guy is, to
    underneath the hanging rock. I've not done that. I've done that too.

    I also lay flat on that rock and stuck my head and my
    camera over the end.

    None of this this is dangerous, except standing up in a wind.
    That's dangerous. What's also dangerous is that since its
    a dome, the top slopes off slowly. There's no obvious "danger point"
    on the way to sliding off.

    Doug McDonald
     
    Doug McDonald, Aug 8, 2012
    #61
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  2. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    What is truly dangerous is the high number of individuals who
    underestimate the physical effort required, and who ignore advice to
    carry water, wear proper shoes/boots, and to never attempt the climb in
    wet weather or during impending thunderstorms. Half Dome is the tallest
    lightning rod in the area and there have been fatal lightning strikes
    on groups who have ignored the warning signs at the start of the climb
    above the Vernal Falls trail.

    Folks forget that Yosemite is dangerous mountain wilderness, but
    continue to treat it like Disneyland.
    < http://mrhalfdome.com/Accidents.html >
    <
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...alls-to-her-death-on-yosemites-half-dome.html
     
    Savageduck, Aug 8, 2012
    #62
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  3. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    The permits are not needed for the first part of the hike above Vernal
    Falls, but some sort of control has been desperately needed for many
    years on the cable section. If things were left as they were we would
    be seeing what might be named the "Darwin Awards Hike".
    < http://mrhalfdome.com/images/fall_best.JPG >

    Actually on peak holidays and vacation/tourist season, without permits,
    the traffic had reached log jam levels which were dangerous. The cables
    were over crowded in both directions leaving many out of condition
    tourists making bad decisions. The big problems arise late in the day
    when many who should be getting off the mountain, either because of
    weather closing in, or failing light, push on instead of turning
    around, because their travel schedule has them leaving the park the
    next morning.
    The permit system is viewed as inconvenient by those who like to travel
    spontaneously, but there are those who believe there should be even
    more restriction on Half Dome, 400 per day is still dangerously high.

    Yosemite and Half Dome are not Disneyland, those who are not in good
    condition, or prepared for a 10-14 hour hike (depending on individual,
    or group speed) should stick to the safer trails (there are many),
    Valley walks, guided walks and suitable drives.

    All that said, I will probably be making my annual drive up to Yosemite
    at the end of October/November so I can get more shots such as this one
    of Half Dome, in my pathetic attempts to emulate AA.
    < http://db.tt/myMm4lAo >
     
    Savageduck, Aug 8, 2012
    #63
  4. Alan Browne

    Robert Coe Guest

    : >On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:05:55 -0800, (Floyd L.
    : >Davidson) wrote:
    : >
    : >>>On Mon, 06 Aug 2012 00:25:35 -0800, (Floyd L.
    : >>>Davidson) wrote:
    : >>>
    : >>>>>
    : >>>>>>On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 11:24:11 -0700, Savageduck <[email protected]{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    : >>>>>>wrote:
    : >>>>>>: On 2012-08-05 09:57:11 -0700, Robert Coe <> said:
    : >>>>>>:
    : >>>>>>: > On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 11:34:56 -0400, Alan Browne
    : >>>>>>: > :
    : >>>>>>: > : This question pops up from time to time and the general conclusion seems
    : >>>>>>: > : to be "Yes, and probably very effectively!"
    : >>>>>>: > :
    : >>>>>>: > : But would AA lower himself to cheap parlor tricks in PS?
    : >>>>>>: > :
    : >>>>>>: > : You betcha!
    : >>>>>>: > :
    : >>>>>>: > : At the Peabody Essex Museum (Salem, MA) exhibit "At the water's edge"
    : >>>>>>: > : there is one photo that seemed too pat, too symmetrical. I zoomed in
    : >>>>>>: > : with my feet to look at the way the water splashing seemed to
    : >>>>>>: > : criss-cross... then looking at the patterns of the boulders it was clear
    : >>>>>>: > : that he had taken the same scene twice, maybe an hour apart. And then
    : >>>>>>: > : reversed one of the negatives atop the other to make the print (or
    : >>>>>>: > : exposed the paper with each). There was just a slight vertical offset.
    : >>>>>>: > :
    : >>>>>>: > : "Cascade, Yosemite" ca. 1968
    : >>>>>>: > :
    : >>>>>>: > : Naughty boy our Ansel.
    : >>>>>>: >
    : >>>>>>: > Ansel was an artist, not a photojournalist. ;^)
    : >>>>>>:
    : >>>>>>: Except when it came to his Manzanar project.
    : >>>>>>: < http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/anseladams/aamsp.html >
    : >>>>>>
    : >>>>>>One might almost call that street photography, wouldn't you say?
    : >>>>>>
    : >>>>>I would consider it to be "Documentary" or "Photo Journalism". While
    : >>>>>individually, some images have a "street" feel, it was an extended
    : >>>>>project.
    : >>>>
    : >>>>Moonnrise, Hernandez, New Mexico 1941 is Street!
    : >>>
    : >>>This:
    : >>>http://randomknowledge.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/moonrise-over-hernandez.jpg
    : >>>
    : >>>is "street"? Only in your own personal view, Floyd. I can't imagine
    : >>>anyone else thinking so.
    : >>
    : >>It is Street in exactly the same what that everything
    : >>Joel Meyerowitz shoots is!
    : >
    : >I think I see your problem. You think that because a photographer
    : >shoots a particular type of photography sometimes, that everything he
    : >does is of that genre.
    :
    : Ya know Tony, if I thought that... I would have said
    : that. You can't be so stupid that you didn't notice how
    : I've never said that, can you?
    :
    : Oh, sorry... you can!
    :
    : Let me explain what you just missed. Communications is
    : passing ideas from one to another, and that is done with
    : the use of symbols for difference concepts. Letters,
    : words, pictures... and phrases too. "everything Joel
    : Meyerowitz shoots" is an icon, symbol not necessarily
    : meaning what those individual words impart on their own,
    : but what they mean as a whole.
    :
    : I thought you were well aware of Street Photography as
    : a whole, and would recognize what I was referencing.
    : It's the very style of Meyerowitz! He may take a
    : landscape that cannot be recognized as Street, but the
    : guy can't stay away from Street simply because that is
    : his entire concept of photography!
    :
    : >Meyerowitz is described as a street
    : >photographer and portrait and landscape photographer. Somehow, you've
    : >concluded that his landscape photography is street because he also
    : >does street.
    :
    : Meyerowitz shoots Street. That is his mind set most of
    : the the time. That is what he is known for. Perhaps he
    : has done other styles, but that wasn't the point.
    :
    : If you know how Meyerowitz works (he's done several
    : videos to demonstrate it) you would realize what the
    : difference is between Street as the style of a
    : photograph and as a way to use a camera.
    :
    : The fact is that Meyerowitz's way of taking Street shots
    : is exactly the way the Ansel Adams took Moonrise.
    :
    : >You've decided that his series on "Preservation of Wilderness in New
    : >York City Parks" is "street". I would not expect even Meyerowitz to
    : >agree. When he does street, he does street. When he does landscape,
    : >he does landscape. When he does portraiture, he does portraiture.
    :
    : When you go off on a tangent, there is no holding you back.
    :
    : >>Look up what makes Meyerowitz what he is, and then look
    : >>up how Moonrise was photographed. Live and learn...
    : >
    : >Landscape is landscape no matter who takes it. It doesn't become
    : >street just because that person also does street.
    :
    : If the method is purely Street, the result is purely Street, even
    : if you can't tell the difference!
    :
    : >You are the blind man grasping part of the elephant and deciding what
    : >all of the elephant must be like.
    :
    : Off on another tangent with gratuitous personal insults...
    : What a shame.
    :
    : "but if you can keep paying attention something will
    : reveal itself - just a split second - and then
    : there's a crazy cockeyed picture!"
    : -- Joel Meyerowitz

    I think maybe Floyd has been out in the sun too long. It must be tough when
    you have to go six months between sunsets. We should cut him some slack. (That
    includes you, Tony!)

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Aug 8, 2012
    #64
  5. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    I would imagine there could be several things affecting him from
    frequent white-outs, to dense fog for days at a time, and the
    isolation of a city that is not connected to the rest of the state by
    roads. There would be times you couldn't get out of town if you
    wanted to. And, liquor is not sold in the city.

    There some bright spots in Barrow, though. Residents can look forward
    to watching games like the two-foot high kick and the ear pull.*

    Floyd seems to be inventing his own game regarding photography: the
    leg pull.

    *The ear pull is a traditional Inuit game which tests the competitors'
    ability to endure pain. In the ear pull, two competitors sit facing
    each other, their legs straddled and interlocked. A two-foot-long loop
    of string, similar to a thick, waxed dental floss, is looped behind
    their ears, connecting right ear to right ear, or left to left. The
    competitors then pull upon the opposing ear using their own ear until
    the cord comes free or one player quits from the pain. The game has
    been omitted from some Arctic sports competitions due to safety
    concerns and the squeamishness of spectators; the event can cause
    bleeding and competitors sometimes require stitches.

    [
     
    tony cooper, Aug 8, 2012
    #65
  6. The trail to Half Dome is simply not dangerous until you get to
    sub-dome, unless you venture far off trail, especially at the waterfalls.

    The cable area itself is semi-dangerous. The main danger in OK
    weather is freaking out and losing concentration, or freaking out and
    having muscles turn to nervous jelly. Of course, bad weather really is
    super-dangerous on the domes.

    But as you say, a Half Dome day trip is a long 22 mile day, and
    lots of thousands of feet. What is it, a mile vertical? I took
    over 12 hours ... 4:15 AM to 4:30 PM, but a looooong time on top
    and later sitting on sub-dome watching the (sparse ... it was Wednesday,
    started out cloudy, and there were still the very last vestiges of the
    smoke smell from that huge fire lingering in the valley) line up the
    cables. There was a ranger
    at the start of sub-dome doing the (sham) survey that resulted in the
    permit system. It was clear that they first decided to go to permits,
    and rigged the survey. It was interesting to listen to the comments
    the gal got ... uniformly against restrictions, over and over and
    over again. But there was no place in the survey questions to
    suggest no restrictions, nor the most obvious fix to the
    overcrowded cables ... a second line of cables, to make one set up
    and the other set down. They absolutely had to have a permit system ...
    its the National Park way.

    I once spent an hour arguing with NPS people to use a permit
    we had already had for months (Grand Canyon)! At Rocky Mountain
    Park we spent two hours arguing to get a permit to climb Long's
    Peak (on snow and ice, to be sure, but it turned out to be easy and
    safe, though we were quite prepared to turn back). We were the third and
    fourth people to climb it in 1969 ...
    on July 4 ... the other two did it on January 1. At that time it too
    had a cable, which we chipped out of ice.

    On the other hand, I have had pleasant experiences with rangers
    observing me taking photos with my view camera.

    Doug McDonald
     
    Doug McDonald, Aug 8, 2012
    #66
  7. Alan Browne

    Rob Guest


    This was my concern also - toss up between the 800 or 800E - I was
    influenced by availability - not sure what to buy with or without filter
    that is the question.

    I ended up with a 800E even though it was a couple of hundred more, I
    have no regrets in getting it, there have been no draw backs as far as I
    have found, without the filter.
     
    Rob, Aug 8, 2012
    #67
  8. Yep, here we are with another person who thinks
    gratuitous insults make a point other than how poor they
    are at thinking.

    The sun here, BTW, has been setting every night for
    days, and it *never* goes 6 months between sunsets.
    You are probably one of those idjits that thinks we
    have 6 months of daylight and 6 months of pitch black
    night...

    Do you, by any chance, need to breath some air that
    actually is clean and fresh? You should probably live
    in a place as nice as I do! Might help you with
    cognition, eh?
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Aug 8, 2012
    #68
  9. At least you are learning something! Not well perhaps, but something.
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Aug 8, 2012
    #69
  10. Alan Browne

    Robert Coe Guest

    : >I think maybe Floyd has been out in the sun too long. It must be tough
    : >when you have to go six months between sunsets. We should cut him some
    : >slack. (That includes you, Tony!)
    :
    : Yep, here we are with another person who thinks
    : gratuitous insults make a point other than how poor they
    : are at thinking.
    :
    : The sun here, BTW, has been setting every night for
    : days, and it *never* goes 6 months between sunsets.
    : You are probably one of those idjits that thinks we
    : have 6 months of daylight and 6 months of pitch black
    : night...
    :
    : Do you, by any chance, need to breath some air that
    : actually is clean and fresh? You should probably live
    : in a place as nice as I do! Might help you with
    : cognition, eh?

    Perhaps.

    But you think that what I wrote above qualifies as a gratuitous insult? Are
    you serious or simply trying to maintain your credentials as a humorless twit?
    I assure you, sirrah, that had I actually intended to insult you, I would have
    done so rather more effectively than that.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Aug 9, 2012
    #70
  11. Actually my point was that you appeared, in that article, to be
    incompetent.

    Now it's two in a row...
     
    Floyd L. Davidson, Aug 9, 2012
    #71
  12. Alan Browne

    Alan Browne Guest

    I'm sure you can find a good enough explanation on Wikipedia.

    Artistically he's most known for his portrayal of landscapes, esp. of
    the western US. That doesn't mean he only did landscapes (or even mostly).

    Technically of course it is for describing the zone system (which he
    developed with another photographer). The system is summarized in 3 of
    his books (The Camera, The Negative, The Print - a collection developed
    in the 50's and revised several times since).

    I don't think the label "best photographer" would fit (anyone), but he'd
    certainly be one of the best and one of the most accomplished and best
    regarded by a wide audience.

    For example it would be silly to compare AA to, H C-B who was
    technically no slouch but artistically had a much larger gamut of
    interest and spontaneity. Nobody should say one was "better" than the
    other. At worst perhaps "different equals".

    Because of the control exercised by the AA trust, his photographs may be
    the most valuable collection by a single photographer - if that's a
    useful measure.
     
    Alan Browne, Aug 10, 2012
    #72
  13. Alan Browne

    Alfred Molon Guest

    By the way, why is AA so famous? Is he the best photographer of all
    times, the one who invented modern photography or for what other reason
    is he so special?
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 10, 2012
    #73
  14. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    First in this digital age with things made simple for photographers of
    all levels it is tough to make a comparison with what Ansel Adams did
    in the 1930's to what is achievable today. As to being the "best"
    anything "of all time" is a ridiculous assertion to make. He was
    revolutionary in his approach to photography, and his influence has an
    impact on today's photographers, sometimes unwittingly so.

    AA is special because it was he who took photography out of an era of
    soft portraiture and added an element of technical deliberation to
    landscape photography. His choice of remote areas controlled by the
    National Park Service and the North American Western wilderness as
    subject material exposed a nation, to the astonishing, and stark beauty
    of those areas. His work at Yosemite and the Sierras was such that it
    was a major factor in the promotion of the Park to a population
    ignorant of its existence. Much of his work helped promote preservation
    of the wilderness areas at a time it was not particularly politically
    expedient to do so. This was at a time when the US population was
    suffering through the depression and they learned that there was more
    out there than the bleak life of the inner cities.

    Then he showed that there was more to landscape photography than
    typical snapshots. He brought landscape photography into the realm of
    art by "visualizing" or "previsualization" of his images. Composing and
    exposing his photographs with his "visualized" intent, to achieve a
    truly artistic result.
    All of his work gained a particular character, due to his technical
    approach to photography starting with his selection of equipment and
    preparation needed for shooting his "visualized" landscapes. This
    extended to the darkroom and his work with negative and plate
    preparation, and his printing techniques which resulted in the Zone
    System" and prints the likes of which were almost surreal and not
    achievable using standard techniques.
    You might say he was the B&W HDR landscape photographer of his time.
    His print work was such that even having an Adams negative would not be
    a guarantee that one would be able to reproduce an Adams print.
    The creation of an image such as "The Tetons and The Snake River" is
    something that was beyond the capabilities of photographers of his time.
    <
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Adams_The_Tetons_and_the_Snake_River.jpg
    After Adams, all of us who have worked in a darkroom, and who now use
    various digital imaging and editing software owe him a debt of thanks,
    as do all who are able to visit many of the Western National Parks
    today.
    The concept of today's selective adjustment using digital editing
    software has its foundation in Adams' work.

    ....and if you want to see his impact on photography, take a trip to
    Yosemite and see just how many photographers are trying to emulate him
    today.
     
    Savageduck, Aug 10, 2012
    #74
  15. I have no idea but he was an early adopter of concepts and methods that were
    emerging at the time. His work is both iconic and his books provide good
    guides to the art. This is very hard to trump.

    One thing people miss and, I think, Ansel Adams would be the first to admit
    is like some Zen Master he's not in the business of training seals. Verbatim
    copying of his work and reading his books has some use but only to a point.
    The real legacy is whether it sparks some talent in the people that follow
    him and as the saying goes "this cannot be taught".
     
    Charles E. Hardwidge, Aug 10, 2012
    #75
  16. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    If you really want to know about his reputation, try to see some of his
    original images. I have never seen a reproduction that does justice to
    his work. I have been emotionally moved by his originals.
     
    PeterN, Aug 10, 2012
    #76
  17. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    I think your issue is with the word "famous". Why is "fame" so
    important to you.

    "Fame" is not what makes one appreciate the work of one photographer
    over another. It is the work done in his/her own time with the
    equipment and technology available at the time. In this Adams was
    unique, as were some of his contemporaries who produced fine
    photographic work. Just think of Edward Wesson, Dorothea Lange, Walker
    Evans, and Carier-Bresson, each approached their work differently, but
    all are considered great photographers.

    The great factor separating the average photographer from the great, is
    the ability to use the tools available to produce the best work their
    mind envisages. If these photographers were alive today, I have no
    doubt, their unique "vision" and ability to adapt equipment throughout
    their careers to that "vision". Adams would be just as valid in the
    digital age as he was in his time. Fame is something else altogether.

    It is always worth reminding one's self that Adams had two other
    contributions to the public at large. The first is his promotion of
    wilderness photography, and creating an awareness that the wilderness
    needed to be preserved and appreciated. The second was his role as a
    teacher of photography. There are thousands of photographers and
    darkroom artists who learned from Adams, his work, his classes, and his
    books.

    ....and what is a "famous" photographer, a Bailey, an Avedon, a Mathew
    Brady, an Alexander Gardner, an Alfred Stiegltz, Fellig, Annie
    Liebowitz?
     
    Savageduck, Aug 11, 2012
    #77
  18. Alan Browne

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Alfred Molon, Aug 11, 2012
    #78
  19. Alan Browne

    Alfred Molon Guest

    I googled a bit for his images. Nice shots, but also other contemporary
    photographers take good shots and are by far not as famous as him. I
    guess if he started again nowadays he probably wouldn't become as
    famous.
     
    Alfred Molon, Aug 11, 2012
    #79
  20. Alan Browne

    Robert Coe Guest

    : The trail to Half Dome is simply not dangerous until you get to
    : sub-dome, unless you venture far off trail, especially at the waterfalls.
    :
    : The cable area itself is semi-dangerous. The main danger in OK
    : weather is freaking out and losing concentration, or freaking out and
    : having muscles turn to nervous jelly. Of course, bad weather really is
    : super-dangerous on the domes.
    :
    : But as you say, a Half Dome day trip is a long 22 mile day, and
    : lots of thousands of feet. What is it, a mile vertical? I took
    : over 12 hours ... 4:15 AM to 4:30 PM, but a looooong time on top
    : and later sitting on sub-dome watching the (sparse ... it was Wednesday,
    : started out cloudy, and there were still the very last vestiges of the
    : smoke smell from that huge fire lingering in the valley) line up the
    : cables. There was a ranger
    : at the start of sub-dome doing the (sham) survey that resulted in the
    : permit system. It was clear that they first decided to go to permits,
    : and rigged the survey. It was interesting to listen to the comments
    : the gal got ... uniformly against restrictions, over and over and
    : over again. But there was no place in the survey questions to
    : suggest no restrictions, nor the most obvious fix to the
    : overcrowded cables ... a second line of cables, to make one set up
    : and the other set down. They absolutely had to have a permit system ...
    : its the National Park way.

    Installing a second set of cables might be a good idea. But I think you'd want
    to have both an "up" and a "down" cable in each set. If someone realized part
    way up that he wasn't going to make it, it would be difficult and dangerous
    for him to try to get over to the other set of cables. But if he had to
    descend one of the cables of his set against traffic, that would also be
    dangerous and disruptive.

    Which is the statistically more dangerous direction, BTW? I'd think that the
    danger of freaking out might be greater descending. I've read that at the
    ancient Aztec or Inca building (Machu Pichu?) with the long wide stairway,
    some people climb up without incident but are too terrified to descend,
    because the view out and down is so disorienting.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Aug 11, 2012
    #80
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