Would Ansel Adams use Photoshop?

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Alan Browne, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    More important is the ability to see. Even AA hired technicians to use
    the darkroom tools.
    Don't forget these guys and those who preceded them.

    <http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jun/18/war-photographers-special-report>
     
    PeterN, Aug 11, 2012
    #81
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  2. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    Agreed.
    We would be remiss not to mention those combat photographers who died
    just doing their job, Robert Capa, co-founder of Magnum, Dickey
    Chappelle, Larry Burrows, Kent Potter, Sean Flynn (Errol's son), Dana
    Stone, Henri Huet, and the many others.
    < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Capa >
    < http://life.time.com/history/vietnam-war-one-ride-with-yankee-papa-13/#1 >
    < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Chapelle >
    < http://digitaljournalist.org/issue9711/req1.htm >

    ....and those who were severely injured such as Tim Page and Joao Silva.
    < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Page_(photographer) >
    <
    http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/30/this-is-what-i-do-this-is-all-that-i-know/
     
    Savageduck, Aug 11, 2012
    #82
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  3. Alan Browne

    Robert Coe Guest

    : In article <[email protected]>, Savageduck
    : says...
    : > The creation of an image such as "The Tetons and The Snake River" is
    : > something that was beyond the capabilities of photographers of his time.
    : > <
    : > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Adams_The_Tetons_and_the_Snake_River.jpg
    : > >
    :
    : Hmmm... nowadays you would use HDR to create such an image, or overlay
    : manually images taken with different exposures.
    : By the way, 5:4 aspect ratio.

    Even without HDR, there are photographers alive today (the Duck himself may be
    one of them) who could do a better job than Adams did with that scene. But
    that's not the point; after all, with today's equipment, Adams would have done
    a better job. The point is that Adams was a genius at choosing the right
    conditions (vantage point, time of day, film and print processing, etc.) and
    using the resulting images to help elevate landscape photography beyond the
    see-and-shoot mentality of the past. The Snake River shot is easy to criticize
    for its murky shadows and inconsistent lighting, but you can see at a glance
    the impact it must have had as a harbinger of the future of American landscape
    photography.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Aug 11, 2012
    #83
  4. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    Aaw! Shucks!
    Just for that here is a biggie (downsized to 1604x1080), too downsized
    and it kinda kills it.
    No HDR, just some zone work with NIK Silver Efex Pro 2.
    BTW: It is Geo-tagged. ;-)
     
    Savageduck, Aug 11, 2012
    #84
  5. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Look, Duck, I admire a great deal of your work. You do some nice
    stuff. But, sometimes you get carried away with effects. Whatever
    NIK did to this one is too much.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 11, 2012
    #85
  6. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    It's like Henry Ford. Carmakers today crank out better looking,
    better made, and better equipped automobiles. But, you have to
    consider Ford for what he was doing when he did it compared to what
    others were able to do.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 11, 2012
    #86
  7. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    Glad you like it. ;-)
    No effects. What effect is it you believe I used?
    It is a single exposure, no HDR or tone mapping.

    The metadata/exif is intact, you might even notice that it was shot
    using that critically panned lens, the Nikkor 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6 VR.

    ACR processing of the NEF, Lens profile applied, a bit of noise
    reduction in the sky, contrast tweak, USM applied, and NIK Silver Efex
    Pro 2 for the B&W conversion. Some selective B&W adjustment with SE,
    and done.
     
    Savageduck, Aug 11, 2012
    #87
  8. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Using NIK to convert from color to black and white *is* an effect.
    Any conversion is an effect.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 11, 2012
    #88
  9. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    OK! I didn't have a view camera, or a Hassy loaded with B&W film with
    me on that trip, so I shot in digital RAW which required a B&W
    conversion, so I could feed my Adams flight of fantasy.

    Curses! I had to convert the RAW NEF to JPEG, and a conversion equates
    to an effect. I'm doomed!

    ....and I know NIK Silver Efex Pro even implies "effects" in its name.

    So what should I do to reach, MY desired result, when you seem to
    prefer me to show an image with no adjustment?
    Shoot JPEG only (no conversion, therefore no effect. I guess that's
    right) and just post that unadjusted image?
     
    Savageduck, Aug 11, 2012
    #89
  10. Alan Browne

    Robert Coe Guest

    On 2012-08-11 13:39:49 -0700, tony cooper <> said:
    :
    : > On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 13:34:03 -0700, Savageduck
    : >
    : >> On 2012-08-11 13:09:15 -0700, tony cooper <> said:
    : >>
    : >>> Look, Duck, I admire a great deal of your work. You do some nice
    : >>> stuff.
    : >>
    : >>>
    : >> Glad you like it. ;-)
    : >>
    : >>> But, sometimes you get carried away with effects. Whatever
    : >>> NIK did to this one is too much.
    : >>
    : >> No effects. What effect is it you believe I used?
    : >> It is a single exposure, no HDR or tone mapping.
    : >>
    : >> The metadata/exif is intact, you might even notice that it was shot
    : >> using that critically panned lens, the Nikkor 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6 VR.
    : >>
    : >> ACR processing of the NEF, Lens profile applied, a bit of noise
    : >> reduction in the sky, contrast tweak, USM applied, and NIK Silver Efex
    : >> Pro 2 for the B&W conversion. Some selective B&W adjustment with SE,
    : >> and done.
    : >
    : > Using NIK to convert from color to black and white *is* an effect.
    : > Any conversion is an effect.
    :
    : OK! I didn't have a view camera, or a Hassy loaded with B&W film with
    : me on that trip, so I shot in digital RAW which required a B&W
    : conversion, so I could feed my Adams flight of fantasy.
    :
    : Curses! I had to convert the RAW NEF to JPEG, and a conversion equates
    : to an effect. I'm doomed!
    :
    : ...and I know NIK Silver Efex Pro even implies "effects" in its name.
    :
    : So what should I do to reach, MY desired result, when you seem to
    : prefer me to show an image with no adjustment?
    : Shoot JPEG only (no conversion, therefore no effect. I guess that's
    : right) and just post that unadjusted image?

    It might be interesting to see what it looks like in color. The excessive
    contrast down the middle might be mitigated by the deeply wooded portions
    being dark green, rather than black.

    Note that history doesn't record that Adams was opposed to color. But color
    prints lacked the permanence of B&W, and the effects Adams wanted weren't
    always well supported by the color films of the time. Most importantly, color
    film didn't lend itself well to the hands-on tinkering that characterized so
    much of Adams's work. Which is why the insinuation that he might have eschewed
    today's industrial-strength photo editors is so silly.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Aug 11, 2012
    #90
  11. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    Look, I recognize that you - as I do - process your images to look the
    way you like them to look. I don't have a problem with that. I just
    don't like the (what I call) over-processed look. When you "contrast
    tweak" or make a "selective B&W adjustment", that's adding effects.
    It's about how much tweak or how much adjustment.

    I did a trial run with NIK Silver Efex Pro a couple of years ago, and
    it seems I remember some pre-set versions to choose from. Some I
    liked. They weren't different enough from my own conversions, but
    they sure were simpler.

    As you know, I don't do landscape. I do like a lot of contrast,
    though, with people:
    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/Candids/i-DsvRSR3/0/X2/2011-02-07-1-X2.jpg

    This is as close as I get to landscape:

    http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Photography/Miscellanea/i-32HcHJF/0/X2/2012-05-10-1G-X2.jpg
     
    tony cooper, Aug 12, 2012
    #91
  12. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    OK!
    Here is a color version and a side-by-side comparison.
    < http://db.tt/ZVjYoasQ >
    Folks lock themselves into what they believe those long dead legends
    might, or might not do based on personal beliefs and myths.
     
    Savageduck, Aug 12, 2012
    #92
  13. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    OK!
    I have been using their stuff for a few years now, and I am constantly
    learning to control my hand, and follow tutorials.
    Yup the presets can make thing a bit faster, but they are not
    necessarily the best choice, but a starting point for further
    adjustments, to the point where you can save those settings as a new
    preset. Then there is the ability to make selective adjustments with
    either a control point, or brushing in adjustments to areas needing
    them. This is where the Wacom tablet comes into its own.
    Aah! Yes, I remember the dude with the diamond stud. nice work.
    here there is something "wrong". The contrast due to the strong
    highlights (I suspect blown highlights in the color version) needs
    something else to fix the image. I don't believe there is a quick NIK
    fix for this. I think that this is one of those times an ND Grad might
    have helped. Perhaps adding a grad in ACR???

    Was there a particular reason you went B&W with this, or was it a
    rescue effort?
    Why do I think there might have been CA issues through the tree tops.
     
    Savageduck, Aug 12, 2012
    #93
  14. Alan Browne

    tony cooper Guest

    No, I saw it as black and white from the start. I liked the lines and
    the diagonals of the shadows. I was out and about and saw this in
    early morning with the sun behind the trees. I pushed it to max
    contrast deliberately. I didn't want detail.

    I wouldn't have shot it for a color image. I don't really remember
    the original.
    I wouldn't have worried about any CA because I wasn't interested in
    any details in the leafy portions and expected any fringing to drop
    out.
     
    tony cooper, Aug 12, 2012
    #94
  15. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    On 8/11/2012 7:22 PM, tony cooper wrote:

    He reminds me of someone who I played piker with a few months ago. ;-)

    Nothing wrong with that one. You might do well if you stopped saying you
    don't do landscapes.
     
    PeterN, Aug 12, 2012
    #95
  16. Alan Browne

    PeterN Guest

    There goes my dyslexic fingers again.
    That should be "poker," not "Piker."
     
    PeterN, Aug 12, 2012
    #96
  17. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    Alright then! Shot with B&W in mind from the start, so CA not an issue.
    I just feel that it could be done a little differently from the
    original RAW, it still feels like something of a "rescue" to me.

    What I like is, unlike many others, you are prepared to step out of
    your comfort zone and shoot for experimentation.
    It can be fun.

    I know this is not your high contrast line of trees with the Sun behind
    them, but is this vaguely the sort of thing you had in mind?
    < http://db.tt/FGtA4wYe >
     
    Savageduck, Aug 12, 2012
    #97
  18. Alan Browne

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I hope not. I hate to say this but to me, that's a mess.
     
    Eric Stevens, Aug 12, 2012
    #98
  19. Alan Browne

    Savageduck Guest

    I didn't say it was supposed to be good. I asked Tony if that was the
    sort of thing he was attempting.

    You did take a look at Tony's image didn't you?

    Anyway back to the image you noted as "a mess".
    I have to agree. I searched through my long rejected shots for an
    example of back-lit trees to create that harsh contrast effort.
    Yup! it is a mess. Almost deliberately so.
    Glad you noticed, because I was trying to find some way to demonstrate
    what I thought was wrong with Tony's shot. Neither are good, both are a
    mess.
     
    Savageduck, Aug 12, 2012
    #99
  20. Alan Browne

    Bruce Guest


    "Folks" does not exclude you, of course. ;-)
     
    Bruce, Aug 12, 2012
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